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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/22/2020 4:03 AM, Lieven L. Litaer
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:6c5e0620-b8d5-f513-dbdc-b2f69c4a616d@gmx.de">Am
21.02.2020 um 18:42 schrieb SuStel:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">The word is /genitive./ The first noun
[...]
<br>
<br>
*bIQ bal* /water jug
<br>
</blockquote>
[...]
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Apposition, on the other hand, is where
two nouns or noun phrases are
<br>
side by side, and one further identifies the other.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Okay, I think I understand. But how is the following interpreted
then?
<br>
<br>
We were told the word {wab labwI'} means "radio". We were also
told that
<br>
if it was need to distinguish the broadcaster from the device, you
may
<br>
add {jan}.
<br>
<br>
Expanding this, I could probably say {wab labwI' qach}, {wab
labwI'
<br>
malja'}, {wab labwI' loD}... etc.
<br>
<br>
The second part of this nn-construction might be labeled as
"identifier".
<br>
</blockquote>
<p>In linguistics, the correct word for the second noun would be the
<i>head noun.</i><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:6c5e0620-b8d5-f513-dbdc-b2f69c4a616d@gmx.de">
I may even accept that it's still a genetive construction, BUT why
is it
<br>
turned around?
<br>
<br>
For instance, in {bIQ bal} the identifier comes first: WATER
bottle
<br>
instead of "BEER bottle".
<br>
<br>
In the phrase {wab labwI' jan}, it's not {wab labwI'} identifiying
the
<br>
kind of {jan}, it's the {jan} word which is telling you what kind
of
<br>
{wab labwI'} you talk about.</blockquote>
<p>You're confusing how Okrand is describing something and the
grammar behind it. When Okrand says you can distinguish which kind
of <b>wab labwI'</b> by adding a word like <b>jan,</b> what he
means is you can talk about a different head noun to make the
distinction. Instead of talking about a <i>transmitter,</i> which
can be a person or a device the person is using (in English, too),
you can talk about a <i>device,</i> which is only one thing. <b>wab
labwI' jan</b> is a noun-noun construction in which the genitive
noun (phrase) is <b>wab labwI',</b> and the head noun is <b>jan.</b>
Okrand is not saying you're adding a genitive noun, and you're
not; he's only giving you a way to clarify that you mean a device
instead of a person.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:6c5e0620-b8d5-f513-dbdc-b2f69c4a616d@gmx.de"> In
addition to thins thought, {wab labwI'}
<br>
CAN stand alone and still mean the same when context is clear.</blockquote>
<p>More specifically, it can stand alone when the speaker doesn't
need to know whether you're talking about a person sending a
signal or the device used to send that signal.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:6c5e0620-b8d5-f513-dbdc-b2f69c4a616d@gmx.de"> If the <br>
word {bIQ} stands alone, it is never connected to the idea of a
bottle,
<br>
but {bal} is.
<br>
</blockquote>
<p>Because there is no double possibility as to what <b>bIQ</b>
means.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:6c5e0620-b8d5-f513-dbdc-b2f69c4a616d@gmx.de">
Compare this:
<br>
<br>
{wab labwI' vIpoQ. wab labwI' jan vIpoQ.}
<br>
I need a radio. I mean, a radio DEVICE.
<br>
</blockquote>
<p>As opposed to the person who transmitted sounds, who is also a <b>wab
labwI'.</b><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:6c5e0620-b8d5-f513-dbdc-b2f69c4a616d@gmx.de">
{bal vIpoQ. bIQ bal vIpoQ.}
<br>
"I need a bottle. I mean, a WATER bottle"
<br>
<br>
See the difference?
<br>
</blockquote>
<p>In the first sentence, you're changing head nouns to make it
clear what you're talking about. In the second sentence, you're
adding a genitive noun to clarify the sense of the head noun, but
never changing the head noun.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:6c5e0620-b8d5-f513-dbdc-b2f69c4a616d@gmx.de">
Now this is my serious question:
<br>
Where is the difference? And does it have a name?
<br>
</blockquote>
<p>These are two completely different grammatical operations, so
there is no name.<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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