<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">The one thing I’ve noticed about all of the canon examples cited is that they take the form: [complete Klingon sentence {rIntaH}. None of them have a subject noun following {rIntaH}, similar to the way {tu’lu’} never becomes {tu’} followed by a subject.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Maybe that’s a coincidence and a sentence like *taQ rIntaH DevwI’* is grammatical, but I think we should at least consider that perhaps that should have been *taQ DevwI’ rIntaH*.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">It just feels better as “The leader is weird. It is finished,” than “he/she/it/they is/are weird. The leader is finished,” or “The leader finishes that [without using {‘e’}] he is weird.” I just see that as more of a stretch. Maybe that’s how it works, but I’m surprised by that.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Temporarily dropping the willing suspension of disbelief, it looks like {rIntaH} was first invented in ST3 in order to explain why valQIS’s lips were still moving as the actress spoke in English and was overdubbed in Klingon using what should have been fewer syllables, and from that, I interpreted the example to be like the common use of {tu’lu’} where {lutu’lu’} would be grammatically correct— something fossilized and no longer participating in normal Klingon grammar.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I honestly believed that you just took a Klingon sentence and slapped {rIntaH} at the end as a way of replacing a verb suffix in one sentence with a second sentence adding meaning back to the first one.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I do not claim to know that I’m right. I just wonder which way this works. The very limited canon fails to make it clear.</div><br class=""><div class="">
<div dir="auto" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan<br class=""><br class="">rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.</div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><br class=""></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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<div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jan 23, 2020, at 10:34 AM, SuStel <<a href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" class="">sustel@trimboli.name</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/23/2020 9:55 AM, Lieven L. Litaer
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:6c93ff89-aacd-c9bc-e3ab-f75ce04378fd@gmx.de" class="">Am
23.01.2020 um 15:41 schrieb SuStel:
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">I should have been more careful with my
literal translations of these.
<br class="">
<br class="">
*jIQuch rIntaH
<br class="">
... and that happiness is over forever./
<br class="">
... and
<br class="">
that strangeness is over forever./
<br class="">
</blockquote>
<br class="">
I never saw {rIntaH} meaning that something is over, it means that
an
<br class="">
action is accomplished.
<br class="">
<br class="">
From ST3 {vIje' rIntaH} means that valkris has bought the thing,
the
<br class="">
action of buying is complete, in the sense that this situation
will last
<br class="">
forever, not that it's over forever.
<br class="">
</blockquote><p class="">This is true for action verbs, because the verb brings about a
change of state. When you <b class="">je',</b> you change the owner of the
object of the sentence. <b class="">rIntaH</b> means that the action of
buying is over, and the new state of ownership is permanent.</p><p class="">This works generally for action verbs.</p>
<b class="">maghwI' vIjon rIntaH<br class="">
</b><i class="">I captured the traitor.</i><br class="">
I set out to capture the traitor and completed that task. What I did
was so effective, it can never be undone.
<p class="">But verbs of quality (without syntax-changing suffixes) do not
describe an action that brings about a change of state. They
simply describe a quality. With <b class="">rIntaH,</b> a quality means
you set out to be that quality, you completed being that quality
(so now it's over), and what you've done is final.</p><p class="">Maybe you're right in that <b class="">rIntaH</b> doesn't imply <i class="">over
forever.</i> <b class="">jIQuch rIntaH</b> might mean that I set out to
be happy, completed being happy, am no longer happy (at least
about whatever it was I was happy about at the time), and my
achievement of happiness at that time cannot be undone. It doesn't
imply that I'm still happy, in fact it says that that particular
happiness is over, but it does mean that nothing can be done to
blemish the accomplishment of happiness I achieved.</p><p class="">That sounds good to me. So <b class="">taQ rIntaH DevwI' </b>would mean
that the leader set out to be weird and accomplished it,
completing the weirdness. The weirdness is over now, but that
accomplishment of weirdness can never be undone.</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:6c93ff89-aacd-c9bc-e3ab-f75ce04378fd@gmx.de" class="">
I'm still not sure this would work with verbs of quality (which
was
<br class="">
mayqel's question).
<br class="">
</blockquote><p class="">I think it works grammatically and semantically. Whether it's
something one would commonly say is another matter.<br class="">
</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:6c93ff89-aacd-c9bc-e3ab-f75ce04378fd@gmx.de" class="">
If I say {jIQuch} it's "I'm happy". Adding {rIntaH} would imply an
<br class="">
ongoing situiation, not that it has ended.</blockquote><p class="">Except <b class="">rIntaH</b> means <b class="">-ta'</b> with finality. When you
have <b class="">-ta'</b> you have completion of a goal, not something
ongoing.<br class="">
</p><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:6c93ff89-aacd-c9bc-e3ab-f75ce04378fd@gmx.de" class=""> Meanwhile,
the question is:
<br class="">
Does {jIQuchta'} work, and what does it mean? {-ta'} implies that
<br class="">
something is accomplished, so what do you accomplish, when you
{Quch}?
<br class="">
</blockquote><p class="">It means you set out to be happy and you accomplished it. It
means the happiness came to an end, because it's completed.</p><p class="">If, on the other hand, you want to describe a situation in which
you set out to be happy and achieved it and are still happy, you'd
say <b class="">chIch jIQuchchoH 'ej jIQuchtaH.</b></p><p class="">We have a bit of relevant canon. From <i class="">paq'batlh</i> we have <b class="">bIvalta':</b></p>
<blockquote class=""><p class=""><b class="">qeylIS lIjlaHbogh pagh<br class="">
Suto'vo'qorDaq qavan<br class="">
batlh bIyInta' 'ej bIvalta'</b></p><p class=""><i class="">Kahless the unforgettable,<br class="">
I welcome you to Sto-vo-kor,<br class="">
For you lived wise and honorable.</i></p>
</blockquote><p class="">Here, Kahless has died. He lived honorably (as was his intention,
and it is over now) and he was wise (as was his intention, and it
is over now). That's not to say he can't be wise in Sto-vo-kor,
but Kotar is describing the life of Kahless, which is over, and so
therefore is everything he did in life.<br class="">
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name/">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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