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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/11/2020 11:18 PM, Will Martin
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:E60D22E9-03B1-4921-ADD3-CECF25738774@mac.com">
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<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jan 10, 2020, at 4:23 PM, SuStel <<a
href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">sustel@trimboli.name</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:710AB2E8-5291-4038-8A88-D7C2A71040C5@mac.com"
class="">All you get out this uncommon parsing is, “It
is not the case that I destroyed my life because of
her.”
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">That’s kind of vague, don’t you think?</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="">No, I don't. Not at all.</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>I see it as very different from the canon example that
first suggested that this grammar works. A Klingon mother
manipulates her child into eating everything served him by
suggesting that if he doesn’t, then {batlh bIHeghbe’.}</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>A Klingon would not misinterpret this as “You will
honorably not-die,” because, whether you like it or not,
Klingon culture heavily contrasts American and Western
European culture in terms of in the attitude concerning death.
Klingons know that we will all die and they are quite open
about it. There is no option to honorably not die. You can
live honorably, but that’s not the same thing as honorably not
dying, because YOU WILL DIE. There is no option to not die.
All lives end.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>Humans speak most often in euphemisms to avoid the topic
entirely. “My uncle passed away. He is no longer with us.”</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>This is a ludicrous argument. The issue here is that English has
prepositions and Klingon doesn't. It has nothing to do with the
difference between how Klingons and Humans persuade their kids to
eat their dinners. In English we have the preposition <i>without,</i>
but in Klingon we don't. This phrase was obviously invented before
Okrand had decided that you can add <b>-Ha'</b> to adverbials;
the sentence <b>Hoch DaSopbe'chugh batlhHa' bIHegh</b> would also
be perfectly valid. But because <b>batlh bIHeghbe'</b> appears,
if we suppose it is not an error, then we must conclude that the <b>-be'</b>
applies to the adverbial or the entire sentence.</p>
<p>Yes, the difference between honorably not-dying and not-honorably
dying is clear by context. That's not the issue. The issue is
WHETHER IT'S GRAMMATICAL, not whether context tells you which way
to interpret it. The context is obvious. Even if the sentence is
ungrammatical, you'd still understand the context, but you
couldn't use it because it's ungrammatical.<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:E60D22E9-03B1-4921-ADD3-CECF25738774@mac.com">
<div>
<div>Ask a human how they wish to die, and the response is
typically quite different from a Klingon. A Klingon would
quite comfortably suggest {batlh jIHegh vIneH.} A human would
more typically evade or redirect the conversation.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>So, when a mother suggests, {batlh bIHeghbe’}, it’s obvious
her message is, “The path between you and an honorable death
is THROUGH MY COOKING. If you don’t eat what I feed you, you
will die ignominiously. Your relatives will spit at the
mention of your name. You will be shunned by your superiors.
NOW EAT!”</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Does your mind always work on an exaggeration level of 11?</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:E60D22E9-03B1-4921-ADD3-CECF25738774@mac.com">
<div>
<div>If you tell me {ghaHmo’ yInwIj vIQaw’be’}, my natural
response is a mixture of {nuqjatlh?} and {nuqneH?}</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>There’s no time stamp, so I don’t even know whether you are
talking about the past or the future. I consider the past and
reject it. You are here. You are alive. You’ve obviously not
destroyed your life. Why bother me with something so obvious?
What is it supposed to mean to me?</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>It's not supposed to mean anything to you. mayqel stated
explicitly that he was ruminating about an ex, and this sentence
was his thought. There's your context: thinking about an ex. Since
he understands his own context, he has everything he needs to
understand the context of his sentence.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:E60D22E9-03B1-4921-ADD3-CECF25738774@mac.com">
<div>
<div>I consider the present. This isn’t the middle east. She’s
not handing you an explosive vest. You aren’t dressed as a
samurai. She’s not handing you a short sword. There is no
evidence that suggests that she is the cause of you destroying
your life, so again, you seem to be telling me something
obvious.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>He's not telling you anything. He's ruminating to himself.</p>
<p>For someone so obsessed with grammar-according-to-context, you
don't seem to be very good at figuring out the context.<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:E60D22E9-03B1-4921-ADD3-CECF25738774@mac.com">
<div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<p class="">Three: Accusing people or their writing of being
"vague, wittering, and indecisive" is RUDE. Especially by
turning it into a catchphrase. It's not funny.<br class="">
</p>
</div>
</div>
Klingons are rude. And your point is...?<br class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Klingons are not rude. Klingons follow elaborate codes of honor
and behavior. Klingons tend not to have the wheel-greasing
utterances that humans have, and humans may consider this rude,
but they don't go out of their way to insult people and then claim
their culture made them do it — except in the case of Curse
Warfare, which is an activity that all parties mutually agree to
participate in. This is not Curse Warfare.</p>
<p>And if you're pretending to be a Klingon as an excuse for being
rude to people, at least do us the very Klingon courtesy of
translating the phrase into Klingon.<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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