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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/16/2019 3:20 PM, nIqolay Q wrote:<br>
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cite="mid:CAG84SOs8tzYc86OL6Op_x=jX52LuUQ7rvVF=o4eb4biTjApz-A@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 9:24 AM
SuStel <<a href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name"
moz-do-not-send="true">sustel@trimboli.name</a>> wrote:<br>
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<p>Whose purpose it is will be subject to context. In this
case, it's the Klingon's purpose because the Klingon is
trying to get the Romulan's attention. The subject of the
main clause will usually be the one acting toward the
purpose, and I can't think of an example where that is not
the case, but it's possible someone could construct a
sentence that defies this expectation. </p>
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<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"
class="gmail_default">Something with a stative verb would
work. <b>SaqlaHmeH 'orwI'pu' wovqu' wovmoHwI'mey</b> "The
lights are very bright so the pilots can land."<br>
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<p>(I'm ignoring sentences like <b>qIpmeH Qatlh'a',</b> whose
grammar I find to be fairly impenetrable.)<br>
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<div><span class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></span><span
class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">They're not
that impenetrable. It seems that Okrand is using the idea of
"for the purpose of accomplishing something" in a somewhat
different way than the examples in TKD. Those examples use <b>XmeH
Y Z</b> to mean "Z does Y, and does so for the
purpose/intent of accomplishing X". In later examples like <b>qIpmeH
Qatlh'a'</b>, it seems to be also used with stative verbs to
mean something like "Z has quality Y for/regarding the
purposes of accomplishing X".<br>
</span></div>
<div><span class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
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<div><span class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">So <b>qIpmeH
Qatlh</b> would be "For the purposes of [one] hitting it, it
is difficult" or "As far as hitting it is concerned, it is
difficult" or just "It is difficult to hit." Something similar
is used with<b> Heghlu'meH QaQ jajvam</b> and <b>tlhutlhmeH
HIq ngeb qaq law' bIQ qaq puS</b>. They're describing
something's usefulness/suitability/quality/etc. towards
achieving a purpose, not describing a thing happening to bring
about a purpose.<br>
</span></div>
<div><span class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I assume
context helps listeners determine whether something like <b>vIqIpmeH
Qatlh</b> is intended to mean "For the purposes of me
hitting him, he's difficult"/"He's difficult for me to hit" or
to mean "He's difficult, for the purpose of me hitting
him"/"He's difficult so that I'll hit him."</span></div>
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<p>I understand how the English means that; I don't see how the
Klingon means that. "Z has quality Y for/regarding the purposes of
accomplishing X" isn't what the line <b>qIpmeH Qatlh['a']</b> is
saying. It's literally saying something is difficult so that
something hits.</p>
<p>I feel fairly certain that this line came about due to a sloppy
translation. Okrand was handed the line <i>Difficult to hit?</i>,
which is an adjective + infinitive restricting the scope of the
adjective (it's not difficult in general; it's difficult to hit)
and mistook it for a verb + infinitive expressing the purpose of
the verb. So he constructed a Klingon purpose clause. Being canon
now, he would rather just accept the grammar now and move on. That
it <i>can</i> be done is clear, but exactly <i>how</i> it means
what it's supposed to mean remains inadequately explained.<br>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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