<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">I understand both the confusion and what Okrand is probably doing. I have, myself, been stressed by Okrand making what seems to be a strict definition of how things work, and then stretching that definition in a new direction without explaining it, causing me angst. [Don’t get me started on {-moH}…]</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">qIpmeH Qatlh’a’?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">What’s probably going on here?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I think that we are accustomed to {-meH} used to make a noun PHRASE in examples like {ghojmeH taj} (a “to learn” knife) so that the verb with {-meH} is a kind of infinitive that has no subject. It’s not really a noun CLAUSE. It’s just a noun PHRASE. What kind of knife is it? It’s a “to learn” knife. Anyone who uses it would presumably be learning. It’s even more vague than {-lu’}. We don’t care about who is learning. We’re leaning more toward the general concept of learning. This knife promotes that concept.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">When a verb with {-meH} describes the purpose of a verb’s action, we are accustomed to the verb with {-meH} being a dependent CLAUSE, complete with subject and maybe an object.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I think that {QIpmeH qatlh’a’?} is basically {-meH} used as if it were to be used for a noun, but it’s used on a verb, instead. It’s a kind of verb phrase instead of a verb clause. It’s the same kind of infinitive (or near infinitive, since we are so shy about calling this an infinitive). “Is it difficult to hit?”</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The subtext is that if it’s not difficult to hit, I’m not going to bother with it. The whole point of hitting it is the difficulty.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Perhaps a better literal translation would be “Is it in-order-to-hit difficult?”</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Much like you might consider, “Is it blue difficult?” or “is it tall difficult?” What kind of difficult are we interested in here? We’re interested in the “to hit” difficulty. It’s just describing what kind of difficult the task is. Is it a task difficult in a specific way that I’m interested in, as in the general concept of hitting something? Is it difficult to hit?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Am I making sense here? Does this help at all?</div><br class=""><div class="">
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<div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Oct 16, 2019, at 3:46 PM, SuStel <<a href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" class="">sustel@trimboli.name</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/16/2019 3:20 PM, nIqolay Q wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAG84SOs8tzYc86OL6Op_x=jX52LuUQ7rvVF=o4eb4biTjApz-A@mail.gmail.com" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 9:24 AM
SuStel <<a href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" moz-do-not-send="true" class="">sustel@trimboli.name</a>> wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class=""><p class="">Whose purpose it is will be subject to context. In this
case, it's the Klingon's purpose because the Klingon is
trying to get the Romulan's attention. The subject of the
main clause will usually be the one acting toward the
purpose, and I can't think of an example where that is not
the case, but it's possible someone could construct a
sentence that defies this expectation. </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class="">
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">Something with a stative verb would
work. <b class="">SaqlaHmeH 'orwI'pu' wovqu' wovmoHwI'mey</b> "The
lights are very bright so the pilots can land."<br class="">
</div>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class=""><p class="">(I'm ignoring sentences like <b class="">qIpmeH Qatlh'a',</b> whose
grammar I find to be fairly impenetrable.)<br class="">
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"></span><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">They're not
that impenetrable. It seems that Okrand is using the idea of
"for the purpose of accomplishing something" in a somewhat
different way than the examples in TKD. Those examples use <b class="">XmeH
Y Z</b> to mean "Z does Y, and does so for the
purpose/intent of accomplishing X". In later examples like <b class="">qIpmeH
Qatlh'a'</b>, it seems to be also used with stative verbs to
mean something like "Z has quality Y for/regarding the
purposes of accomplishing X".<br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">So <b class="">qIpmeH
Qatlh</b> would be "For the purposes of [one] hitting it, it
is difficult" or "As far as hitting it is concerned, it is
difficult" or just "It is difficult to hit." Something similar
is used with<b class=""> Heghlu'meH QaQ jajvam</b> and <b class="">tlhutlhmeH
HIq ngeb qaq law' bIQ qaq puS</b>. They're describing
something's usefulness/suitability/quality/etc. towards
achieving a purpose, not describing a thing happening to bring
about a purpose.<br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class=""><span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I assume
context helps listeners determine whether something like <b class="">vIqIpmeH
Qatlh</b> is intended to mean "For the purposes of me
hitting him, he's difficult"/"He's difficult for me to hit" or
to mean "He's difficult, for the purpose of me hitting
him"/"He's difficult so that I'll hit him."</span></div>
</blockquote><p class="">I understand how the English means that; I don't see how the
Klingon means that. "Z has quality Y for/regarding the purposes of
accomplishing X" isn't what the line <b class="">qIpmeH Qatlh['a']</b> is
saying. It's literally saying something is difficult so that
something hits.</p><p class="">I feel fairly certain that this line came about due to a sloppy
translation. Okrand was handed the line <i class="">Difficult to hit?</i>,
which is an adjective + infinitive restricting the scope of the
adjective (it's not difficult in general; it's difficult to hit)
and mistook it for a verb + infinitive expressing the purpose of
the verb. So he constructed a Klingon purpose clause. Being canon
now, he would rather just accept the grammar now and move on. That
it <i class="">can</i> be done is clear, but exactly <i class="">how</i> it means
what it's supposed to mean remains inadequately explained.<br class="">
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name/">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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