<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">And just to add one more element to the discussion, isn’t {paq’batlh} poetry? </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">We’ve been specifically told that in poetry, the plural suffixes are not bound by normal rules of grammar. Admittedly, that was in reference to the rare, poetic use of {-mey} on body parts, but in TKD, for either beings capable of language or body parts, using {-mey} always refers to the “scattered all about” meaning, either in poetry or normal speech. There’s no reference to it being intentionally used as an insult in TKD or the Addendum.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">… not that it wouldn’t be insulting… There’s just no mention of it in TKD. We can rationally deduce that it would be insulting to be referred to as a thing incapable of language, but we don’t know that Klingons actually think that way. So far as we can tell, they’d just assume that if you refer to {nuvmey} when you don’t mean “scattered all about”, then maybe you are just an idiot who doesn’t know how to speak Klingon.</div><br class=""><div class="">
<div dir="auto" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan<br class=""><br class="">rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.</div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><br class=""></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Sep 27, 2019, at 11:45 AM, Steven Boozer <<a href="mailto:sboozer@uchicago.edu" class="">sboozer@uchicago.edu</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">I had the same thought as Luciano: {petaQ} may have originally been some sort of disgusting creature or thing, which is why it’s pluralized with {-mey} in the same way that {DeSqIvDu’} “elbows” is also used for V-shaped pot handles (KGT p.97). But as SuStel says, we have no way of knowing.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">For comparison, more than one animal - even when used to refer to people - is {Ha’DIbaHmey} in the paq’batlh:<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">ghoStaHvIS tam 'ej So'<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""> molor QaS HoS<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""> ram Ha'DIbaHmey rur<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">They sneak and they creep,<br class=""> The men of mighty Molor,<br class=""> Like beasts in the dark. (PB)<br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">DaqtaghlIj yIlel qeylIS<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""> ngemvamDaq Ha'DIbaHmey tIHoH<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""> wa' targh cha' tlhInganpu'qoq je<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">Kahless, pull your d'k tahg,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""> Kill the beasts in this forest,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""> One a targ, and two who call themselves Klingon. (PB)<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Note that {Ha’DIbaHmey} refers to two {tlhInganpu’qoq} “so-called Klingons” in the second example. <o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">--<br class="">Voragh<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div class=""><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: windowtext;" class="">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: windowtext;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>SuStel<br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">On 9/27/2019 11:03 AM, Luciano Montanaro wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">As far as I know, petaQ is an insult, but the specific meaning has<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">been withheld, probably to make it safe to use in a program for<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">children.<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">As such, we cannot desume that using -mey is an additional insult; as<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">far as we know, a petaQ may be a disgusting animal, or thing, so -mey<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">would be the grammatical correct way to pluralize it.<o:p class=""></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: "Courier New";" class="">Am I missing something here?<o:p class=""></o:p></pre></blockquote><p style="margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman", serif;" class="">I agree. We just don't have any data on which to speculate. All we know is that in<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">paq'batlh</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Molor calls a group of assembled Klingons<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">petaQmey.</b><o:p class=""></o:p></p></div><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">_______________________________________________</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">tlhIngan-Hol mailing list</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""><a href="mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org" class="">tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org</a></span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=""><a href="http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org" class="">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org</a></span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none;" class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></body></html>