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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/23/2019 9:04 AM, mayqel qunen'oS
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP7F2c+mKUMCQcSHgEWkVtJ8u2goKqZ3cCyQSZk_=sJBjqVN3Q@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">fse:</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
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<div dir="auto">Behold the truth of all that I have spoken, and
how thou art banished unjustly. But if the heart of Feanor is
yet free and bold as were his words in Tirion, then I will aid
him, and bring him far from this narrow land. For am I not a
Vala also ? Yea, and more than those who sit in pride in
Valimar; and I have ever been a friend to the Noldor, most
skilled and most valiant of the people of Arda.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>maj. ghItlh 'ay' DawIvpu'bogh vInaD.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP7F2c+mKUMCQcSHgEWkVtJ8u2goKqZ3cCyQSZk_=sJBjqVN3Q@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="auto">tlh:</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
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<div dir="auto">jIjatlhpu', 'ej mu'meywIj vIt yItlhoj. nIghImpu'
'ej nIghImtaHvIS nIQIH. pa'logh, tlhabpu' feanor tIq 'ej Qob
bamvIpbe'pu'; *tirion*Daq jatlhtaHvIS feanor, mu'meyDaj rur
tIqDaj. choHpu'be'chugh ngoDvam, vaj vIQaH, ghaHvaD Sepvam
langvo' vIghoSmoH, 'ej vIHopmoH. *vala* jIHbe''a' je ? HIja'.
*valimar* luDab *valar* chaHbogh 'op'e', 'ej Hem. 'ach vala
jIHqu'. *noldor*pu' yoHqu' law' Hoch *arda* nuvpu' yoHqu' puS.
'ej reH *noldor*pu'vaD jup jIHpu'.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Comments:</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">1st: </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Reading the "for am I not a Vala also ?" gives
me goosebumps. It's fracking perfect.</div>
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</blockquote>
<p>That's the thing about Tolkien: he was literally a genius with
words. He knew what sounded pleasing to the ear and could put such
things together, seemingly effortlessly. This is why I don't
translate Tolkien passages every day: my poor translations
wouldn't hold a candle to the effect of Tolkien's original.</p>
<p>Your translation, meaning no offense, is very choppy and
difficult to read compared to the original. When translating
Tolkien, you'll want to capture the emotional effect of the words
more than the literal meaning of the words.</p>
<p>I believe that a good-sounding Klingon sentence is one that isn't
afraid to use the tools given in <i>The Klingon Dictionary,</i>
but which doesn't overuse them. Good Klingon style isn't
necessarily short, choppy sentences, but neither is it three
subordinate clauses, a sentence conjunction, and a
sentence-as-object all combined in one. Context often makes a
better sentence glue than morphology.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP7F2c+mKUMCQcSHgEWkVtJ8u2goKqZ3cCyQSZk_=sJBjqVN3Q@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="auto">2nd:</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">{nIghImtaHvIS nIQIH} for "thou art banished
unjustly".</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I know that someone can say: by describing it
this way, it can be perceived, that while he was being exiled,
he was being wronged for some other reason irrelevant to the
"his being exiled".</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">But I disagree. I believe that context makes it
clear that "by being exiled he was wronged".</div>
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</blockquote>
<p>I don't have a problem with using this sort of context. I
encourage it if it reduces the number of syntactic constructions
you have to put into a sentence. I probably wouldn't have
understood <b>nIQIH</b> to mean that they were unjust to you
without further explanation.</p>
<p>How about <b>nIghImpu'DI' ruv luHutlh</b><i> when they banished
you, they lacked justice.</i><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP7F2c+mKUMCQcSHgEWkVtJ8u2goKqZ3cCyQSZk_=sJBjqVN3Q@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="auto">3rd:
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">{ghaHvaD Sepvam langvo' vIghoSmoH}</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I wondered whether we can have a noun with a
{-vo'} being the object of the verb which follows it.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">But since we know, that a noun with {-Daq} *can*
be an object, and since the {-Daq} is a type-5, I thought,
"why not ?"</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>You can only use a noun with <b>-Daq</b> as the object of a verb
when that verb has an inherent locative sense, giving its object a
locative meaning. (And it's considered redundant.) Presumably, the
only way you could use a noun with <b>-vo'</b> as the object of a
verb is if the verb has an inherent ablative sense, giving its
object an ablative meaning.</p>
<p>Now, <b>ghoS</b> is an interesting verb, because not only are we
explicitly told it has a locative sense and can take a noun with <b>-Daq</b>
as its object, but we also know that part of the definition of <b>ghoS</b>
is <i>go away from.</i> <b>ghoS</b> is a verb that might just
possibly let you use <b>-vo'</b> on its object. We're not told
that it can do this, and we're not told that any verb has an
inherent ablative notion to it, so I can't declare that this is a
legal thing to do, but it does have some logic behind it beyond <i>why
not?</i></p>
<p>Of course, you'd be perfectly safe using a normal, non-object
ablative, so why not do that?<br>
</p>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
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cite="mid:CAP7F2c+mKUMCQcSHgEWkVtJ8u2goKqZ3cCyQSZk_=sJBjqVN3Q@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="auto">4th:</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">{*noldor*pu' yoHqu' law' Hoch *arda* nuvpu'
yoHqu' puS}</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I put the {-qu'} in {yoH}, because a little bird
told me, that in paq'batlh we have the following:</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">{SoH rallaw' law' Hoch rallaw' puS}</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Of course, I could have just written:</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">{*noldor*pu' yoH law' Hoch *arda* nuvpu' yoH
puS}</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">But reading m-w, I understood "valiant" as
describing someone who is more brave, than "just brave", so I
thought that shoving a {-qu'} would be called for.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>I believe that <i>valiant</i> means not only brave, but showing
that you're brave. It doesn't really mean <i>very brave.</i></p>
<p>As for adding <b>-qu',</b> eh. I have a feeling this is
perfectly fine. I don't have all the various allowed forms of <b>law'/puS</b>
handy for checking, but adding a <b>-qu'</b> doesn't change the
grammar of the quality, just the meaning of the word.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP7F2c+mKUMCQcSHgEWkVtJ8u2goKqZ3cCyQSZk_=sJBjqVN3Q@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">Also, as far as the {Hoch *arda* nuvpu'} of
{*noldor*pu' yoHqu' law' Hoch *arda* nuvpu' yoHqu' puS} is
concerned..</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I distinctively remember having seen a Ca'Non
law'/puS sentence where the {Hoch} was similarly part of a
noun phrase, and not just on its own. Sadly, I don't remember
that sentence..</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><b>targhlIj yab tIn law' no'lI' Hoch yabDu' tIn puS</b><i> your
targ has a bigger brain than all your ancestors put together</i>
(PK)<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP7F2c+mKUMCQcSHgEWkVtJ8u2goKqZ3cCyQSZk_=sJBjqVN3Q@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">However, I *could* have written it as:</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">{*arda* nuvpu''e' *noldor*pu' yoHqu' law' Hoch
yoHqu' puS}</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">But I didn't.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>I'd have preferred it. When an idea is superlative rather than
comparative, it's best to use the actual superlative form.</p>
<p>Why would you say <i>our team is</i><i> better than all other
teams</i> when you can say <i>our team is the best</i>?<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP7F2c+mKUMCQcSHgEWkVtJ8u2goKqZ3cCyQSZk_=sJBjqVN3Q@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">5th:</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">{*valar* chaHbogh 'op, 'ej Hem. 'ach vala
jIHqu'} for "(being a vala) more than those who sit in pride
in valimar"</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I *could* have said this in a "classic"
law'/puS construction:</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">{valar'e' jIH Dun law' valimar valar Dun puS}</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">But I feel that by saying chaH/jIHqu', expresses
more the "feeling" of "they are valar but I AM vala".</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><b><i>Vala</i> chIwmeH, jIH nIv law' <i>Valimar Valar</i> Hem
nIv puS</b><i> In order to epitomize a Vala, I am superior to
the proud Valar of Valimar.</i><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP7F2c+mKUMCQcSHgEWkVtJ8u2goKqZ3cCyQSZk_=sJBjqVN3Q@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">And after all, lets be honest..</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Who actually reads the klingon that is being
written here anyway ?</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><i>Tolkien</i> DamughDI', vIlaD jIH'e'.</p>
<p>One last minor note before I translate the passage myself:</p>
<p>Singular: <i>Noldo, Vala<br>
</i>Plural: <i>Noldor, Valar</i></p>
<p>These days I prefer to use the foreign plural in translations,
but if you want to pluralize these with <b>-pu',</b> say <i><b>Noldo</b></i><b>pu'</b>
and <i><b>Vala</b></i><b>pu'.</b><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><b>jIjatlhpu' 'ej jIvItpu'. boghImlu'pu'DI', lujpu' ruv. <i>Tirion</i>Daq
jatlhpu' <i>Feanor</i>; tlhab 'ej jaq 'e' lu'ang mu'meyDaj.
tlhabtaHchugh tIqDaj 'ej jaqtaHchugh, ghaH vIboQ. puHvam langvo'
vIqem. <i>Vala</i> jIHbe''a' je? HIja'; <i>Vala</i> chIwmeH,
jIH nIv law' <i>Valimar Valar</i> Hem nIv puS. <i>Arda</i>
nugh'e' <i>Noldor</i> po' law' Hoch po' puS 'ej <i>Noldor</i>
yoH law' Hoch yoH puS. reH <i>Noldor</i> jup jIHpu'.</b><br>
</p>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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