<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div dir="ltr"><span></span></div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><span></span></div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><span></span></div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><span></span></div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><span></span></div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">On Jul 22, 2019, at 09:49, SuStel <<a href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name">sustel@trimboli.name</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 7/22/2019 10:19 AM, nIqolay Q wrote:<br>
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<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 10:15 AM
SuStel <<a href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" moz-do-not-send="true">sustel@trimboli.name</a>> wrote:<br>
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<div class="gmail-m_-8483318733063006279moz-cite-prefix">On
7/22/2019 2:52 AM, qurgh lungqIj wrote:<br>
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<div>This is a summery of all the new information we gained.
Most of it is also included on the new words list, but I
compiled it all together for ease of reference.</div>
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<p><b>Hoy</b> is <i>be refined, be fancy, be sophisticated
[pertaining to culture].</i> Does that bracketed note
apply only to the final synonym, <i>sophisticated,</i> or
the whole definition?</p>
<p>That is, does <b>Hoy</b> mean <i>be refined, fancy, not
boorish</i> or <i>be refined in a cultural sense, fancy
in a cultural sense, sophisticated in a cultural sense</i>?</p><br>
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<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">I suspect the bracketed note applies to
"sophisticated" to distinguish it from the sense of "advanced"
(as in "This engineering is quite sophisticated").<br>
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<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">The original request on the KLI page
(which I understand MO was provided with) was "Having
characteristics associated with the upper class, possibly due
to being particularly elaborate or due to arbitrarily
culturally valued attributes. 'We are dinner at a fancy
restaurant two nights ago.' 'Only a sufficiently sophisticated
individual will appreciate the performance.'"</div>
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<p>Your first paragraph is the argument in favor of <i>be refined,
fancy, not boorish,</i> while your second paragraph is the
argument in favor of restricting the verb entirely to a cultural
sense.</p>
<p>For instance, could I say <b>'uSqan Hoy</b><i> refined iron,</i>
or would that only refer to culturally fancy iron? Given the
original request, I suspect not, but the written clarification on
the new words page is poorly positioned.</p></div></blockquote><br><div>If the intent of the requester is worth something, the word as I was requesting it wouldn’t make sense for {'uSqan Hoy} unless perhaps you were referring to a finely crafted blade or piece of art made from iron.</div><div><br></div><div>I don’t see nIqolay’s observations as being contradictory: the first term, “refined” could still be restricted to a cultural sense (as the context of the other glosses might suggest) even if there’s no explicit note saying so. I just wanted to be clear that the word isn’t meant to refer to things like refined sugar, that an oil refinery isn’t a {HoymoHwI'}, that fancy ketchup isn’t {tomat naH vIychorgh Hoy}, that a “sophisticated” artificial intelligence isn’t necessarily going to be culturally sophisticated, etc. I couldn’t find an English word that captured the meaning I intended that didn’t also have another meaning that communicates a different idea.</div><div><br></div><div>FWIW, the original idea I was trying to communicate when I made the request was “elevated”, also in a cultural sense, which for obvious reasons I didn’t think could be communicated with {jenmoHlu'bogh}. I wanted to talk about a food trailer that describes its food as “elevated vegan cuisine” but couldn’t think of the right word. In the moment, I used {Soj le'qu'}, which is probably sufficient, and some time later I realized that {Soj qub} would probably have been even better, but I made the request anyway since I figured it could be useful to have a way to describe culturally refined/fancy/sophisticated things that aren’t food. And I think I like {Ha'DIbaH Hutlhchu'bogh Soj Hoy} better for this particular place anyway, since it’s not exactly {Soj qub}; the atmosphere is quite casual.</div><div><br></div><div>toH.</div><div><br></div><div>teqSaS (teHaS?) mon DaSuchchugh 'ej Ha'DIbaH Hutlhchu'bogh Soj Hoy DawaH DaneHchugh, vaj “bISro vonIS” yIghoS. 'ej pa' bISopchugh, HISovmoH, qamuv vIneHqu'mo'! <a href="https://www.bistrovonish.com/">https://www.bistrovonish.com/</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></body></html>