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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 7/7/2019 4:31 PM, De'vID wrote:<br>
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<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 21:24,
SuStel <<a href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name"
moz-do-not-send="true">sustel@trimboli.name</a>> wrote:<br>
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<div class="gmail-m_-6446536602498626120moz-cite-prefix">On
7/5/2019 1:14 PM, De'vID wrote:<br>
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<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, 5 Jul 2019
at 17:15, mayqel qunen'oS <<a
href="mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>>
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style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">There's
something, which feels strange seeing/reading
the {ghaHlu'}, but I can't find what it
actually is.</p>
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<div>I think this is impossible, because {-lu'} works
with the pronominal prefixes, and pronouns never take
prefixes. </div>
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<p>Prefixes aren't inherent to the job that <b>-lu'</b>
plays. Using <b>-lu'</b> simply makes you use <i>different</i>
prefixes.</p>
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<div>If something never takes prefixes to begin with, how can
it ever take different prefixes?</div>
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<p>I'm speaking here of how <b>-lu'</b> works generally, not how <b>-lu'</b>
works on pronouns. You said that <b>-lu'</b> "works with"
prefixes, but <b>-lu'</b> doesn't work with prefixes any more
than any non-<b>lu'</b> verb. It just uses <i>different</i>
prefixes. So citing some required functional link between <b>-lu'</b>
and verbs to show that prefixless pronouns can't use <b>-lu'</b>
doesn't make any sense.<br>
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<div> That's the problem I have with trying to interpret
something like {ghaHlu'}.<br>
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<p><b>ghaHlu'</b> is meaningless all by itself, just as <b>ghaHtaH</b>
is meaningless all by itself. Pronouns do not carry the "to be"
meaning by themselves; it is only their juxtaposition with nouns
that makes the "to be" meaning come out.<br>
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<p>The sentence <b>Daqawlu'taH</b><i> you will be
remembered</i> is simply a pronoun-elided version of <b>SoH
Daqawlu'taH.</b> The prefix doesn't make the
indefinite subject work; it simply agrees in a different
way than sentences with subjects. All the <b>-lu'</b>
really means is "no subject here."</p>
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<div>I don't see what this has to do with pronouns. We know
how {-lu'} works with (normal) verbs. <br>
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<p>We clearly don't all know, since Lieven claimed that <b>-lu'</b>
"reverse the object-subject." My point is to show that the subject
and object aren't "in" the prefix; the prefix simply agrees with
them. The subject and/or object may be an elided pronoun, and the
only way we know what they are is by the prefix, but the prefix is
still not the source of the subject and object of the sentence, it
just agrees with them.</p>
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<p>I can't see any problem with using <b>-lu'</b> with
the third-person pronouns. First- and second-person
pronoun "to be" sentences use the pronoun itself as the
subject; third-person "to be" sentences can take
third-person nouns as their subjects. <b>verengan
ghaHlu'chugh, qurlu'ba'</b><i> If one is a Ferengi,
one is obviously greedy.</i> This is just the
no-subject equivalent to <b>verengan ghaHchugh vay''e',
qurba' vay'vetlh.</b></p>
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But you do see a problem with using {-lu'} with {jIH} and
{SoH}. "I, who am indefinite, am..." would be a weird thing to
say (outside of maybe a philosophical work).
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<div>I think this extends to {ghaHlu'} as well. I read {ghaHlu'}
as something self-contradictory, like "he or she, who is
indefinite, is...". I understand your interpretation, but I
don't see any reason to think third-person works any
differently than first- or second-person.</div>
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<p><b>ghaHlu'</b> doesn't work by itself. <b>ghaH</b> can't act
like a verb all by itself. <b>ghaH</b> is not a complete
sentence. But there's no semantic reason why <b>SuvwI' ghaHlu'</b><i>
one is a warrior</i> couldn't work. <b>SuvwI'</b> is being
linked by identity to an indefinite entity.</p>
<p>As for why it's different than first- or second-person, consider
why you can't say <b>tlhIngan jIH HoD'e'.</b> The <noun>
<pronoun> <topic>'e' formula only works for
third-person pronouns. TKD explains: "If the subject is a noun, it
follows the third-person pronoun..." With first- or second-person
sentences, the subject is the pronoun, not a noun. <b>-lu'</b>
replaces a subject noun with an indefinite subject. So it only
works where there already is a subject noun to replace. That's the
topic noun in a third-person "to be" sentence.</p>
<p>That's why it works differently in the first or second person.<br>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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