<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">I completely agree with you, IF {chol} works like {ghoS}. It probably does, but there’s no canon to back up that presumption.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">SuStel’s approach is conservative. I’m sure that his suggested grammar works. I think that your suggested grammar works as well. I think that both work, but if I had to put money on it, I’d go with SuStel, because there is no rule that a verb can use based on its meaning to make it behave grammatically like {ghoS}. Okrand (or Maltz) can arbitrarily declare a verb to work like {ghoS} or not.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">SuStel’s suggestion would work for either {Sum} or {ghoS}. Your suggestion works with {ghoS}, but not {Sum}.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">So, if you want to treat it like {ghoS}, I don’t think anyone would misunderstand you or give you TOO much sass in conversation or casual writing, but if you are writing something that might stick around for a while, such that you could be embarrassed by investing in an interpretation that ultimately is proven wrong, then SuStel’s approach is probably wiser.</div><br class=""><div class="">
<div dir="auto" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan<br class=""><br class="">rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.</div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><br class=""></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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<div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jun 14, 2019, at 3:52 AM, Rhona Fenwick <<a href="mailto:qeslagh@hotmail.com" class="">qeslagh@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">ghItlhpu' mayqel, jatlh:<br class=""></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">> I want to say "I come nearer to you". Which of the following is</div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">> the correct way to say it ?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><div class=""><div dir="auto" class="">> qachol</div><div dir="auto" class="">> SoHDaq jIchol</div><div dir="auto" class="">> SoHDaq vIchol</div><div dir="auto" class="">> SoHDaq qachol<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">I know of no canon examples of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">chol</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>with overt pronominal prefixes; the only two instances I know of it in use, from TKD, would have a third-person object in any case and so they're not illuminating.</div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">Personally, I lean towards<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">qachol</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>in parallel with other verbs expressing motion, like<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">ghoS</b>,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">jaH</b>,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">'el</b>,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">leng</b>, etc. (which presumably would mean<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">SoHDaq qachol</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>would also be acceptable - though as Okrand also says regarding<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">pa'Daq vI'el</b>, probably overkill). With all due respect to SuStel, his suggested parallel with<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">Sum</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>or<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">Hop</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>doesn't hold water, because these verbs are canonically adjectival and so they can't take objects in any case:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">HIvje' Sum yItlhap</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>(<i class="">HolQeD</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>7:4),<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">Daq HopHa'Daq qa'chaj nejlI' qotar qempa'QeH je</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>(PB, paq'raD 9:1-3),<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">Daq SumHa'vo' wab Huj Qoylu'</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>(PB, paq'raD 1:13). I don't think there's any justification for treating<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">chol</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>the same way.</div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">QeS 'utlh<br class=""></div></div></div><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">_______________________________________________</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">tlhIngan-Hol mailing list</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><a href="mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org</a><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><a href="http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class="">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org</a></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></body></html>