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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/13/2019 12:03 PM, mayqel qunen'oS
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP7F2cJmsL5XsmkpskNuYHuiUQgUQLTFL-oYJNV49nRAfo_npQ@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="auto">SuStel:</div>
<div dir="auto">> It's because pronoun sentences already </div>
<div dir="auto">> have a correct form, with the topic at
the </div>
<div dir="auto">> end.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">ok, I see.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">So, pronoun sentences aside, what would your
opinion be with regards to the following sentences ?</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">{tlhInganpu''e', maHvaD Dujmeychaj nojQo'}</div>
<div dir="auto">as for the klingons, they refuse to lend us
their ships </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">{tlhInganpu''e', qajatlhpu', maHvaD Dujmeychaj
nojQo'}</div>
<div dir="auto">as for the klingons, I've told you, they refuse
to lend us their ships </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">{tlhInganpu''e', maHvaD Dujmeychaj nojqang net
jalchugh, vaj QangvaD langmeH mIw vImuch}</div>
<div dir="auto">as for the klingons, if they were willing to
lend us their ships, then I would present for the chancellor a
thinning program.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Are the above wrong ?</div>
<div dir="auto">Are the above correct ?</div>
<div dir="auto">or..</div>
<div dir="auto">Are the above correct, *only* if I want to
emphasize ?</div>
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</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>They are marked, because there is no reason you can't leave those
nouns in their normal places in their sentences and still get
emphasis:</p>
<p><b>maHvaD Dujmeychaj nojQo' tlhInganpu''e'<br>
</b></p>
<p><b>qajatlhpu' maHvaD Dujmeychaj nojQo' tlhInganpu''e'<br>
</b>This one is another example of you splitting a sentence with
something parenthetical. If I were to front the topic, I'd put the
<b>qajatlhpu'</b> at the very end to avoid splitting the topic
from its sentence.<br>
</p>
<p><b>maHvaD Dujmeychaj nojqang tlhInganpu''e' net jalchugh, vaj
QangvaD langmeH mIw vImuch</b></p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP7F2cJmsL5XsmkpskNuYHuiUQgUQLTFL-oYJNV49nRAfo_npQ@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">SuStel:</div>
<div dir="auto">> And it's fairly clear from TKD that
another </div>
<div dir="auto">> normal application of the rules is to add </div>
<div dir="auto">> noun phrases to the fronts of sentences </div>
<div dir="auto">> when their syntactic roles are known, </div>
<div dir="auto">> whether by suffix or by their
identification as </div>
<div dir="auto">> time expressions.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">By "identification as time expressions" you mean
something like the following ?</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">{cha'leS ram, vIghro' tIQ wIquvmoH}</div>
<div dir="auto">the night of day after tomorrow, we honor the
ancient cat <br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Yes. We know what the role of the noun phrase <b>cha'leS ram</b>
<i>the night two days from now</i> is, because we recognize it as
a time expression.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP7F2cJmsL5XsmkpskNuYHuiUQgUQLTFL-oYJNV49nRAfo_npQ@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">De'vID:</div>
<div dir="auto">> Nobody has said that you can't? It's </div>
<div dir="auto">> grammatically valid. It just doesn't mean </div>
<div dir="auto">> what you want it to mean.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Now, you lost me..</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Lets remove the ambiguity, of whether its
singular of plural, by writing: {vIghro'mey tIQ'e' novmey
bIH}. Would you accept this to say "as for ancient cats, they
are aliens" ?</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>I would accept it as a marked way to emphasize <b>vIghro'mey
tIQ.</b> But you don't really mean to emphasize the phrase, just
topicalize it. It already gets topicalized as <b>novmey bIH
vIghro'mey tIQ'e'.</b><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP7F2cJmsL5XsmkpskNuYHuiUQgUQLTFL-oYJNV49nRAfo_npQ@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">SuStel:</div>
<div dir="auto">> I've got no problem with that. mayqel
wasn't </div>
<div dir="auto">> translating something with emphasis.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">So, as I understand, if I wrote:</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">{vIghro'mey tIQ'e' novmey bIH}</div>
<div dir="auto">as for ancient cats, they are aliens </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Then this is correct and acceptable *only* if I
want to translate something with emphasis, right ?</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>That's how I'd interpret it. That doesn't preclude a possible
reading of it as a simple topic, but Okrand has said that such a
form would be marked. It's hard to imagine topicalizing that way
and not expecting it to be read as emphasis.</p>
<p>You seem to have trouble accepting the idea that sometimes you
CAN say something, but that you might not WANT to say it because
of how it sounds to a native speaker.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAP7F2cJmsL5XsmkpskNuYHuiUQgUQLTFL-oYJNV49nRAfo_npQ@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">SuStel:</div>
<div dir="auto">> I've got no problem with that. mayqel
wasn't </div>
<div dir="auto">> translating something with emphasis.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">So, if I understand correctly, at the Ca'Non
phrase {qIbDaq SuvwI''e' SoH Dun law' Hoch Dun puS}, the
translation isn't actually "as for (a) warrior(s)..", but
rather "as for (A) WARRIOR(S)..". It is formulated this way
(with the {-'e'} marked noun), for emphasis.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">right ?</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>No. Okrand said that such a phrase is marked, not that it
automatically provides emphasis. In this sentence it's clearly
just being used this way because there's no other place it belongs
in the superlative formula. In basic sentences if you want to
emphasize the subject or object, you just leave them in place.<br>
</p>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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