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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/30/2019 3:22 PM, Will Martin
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:29783C8C-2F60-4A65-8596-D1062E539A50@mac.com">
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<div class="">This is new territory, and perhaps someone else has
more detail from any canon description of how {jal} gives
Klingon the irrealis — the ability to talk about something that
hasn’t happened and is likely never going to happen — can speak
with more authority than I can. We used the language for a
couple decades without this, and to be honest, I don’t see your
average Klingon using this construction very many times in his
life.</div>
</blockquote>
<p>It's fairly simple. the <b>net jalchugh</b> clause sets up a
condition, and the rest of the sentence is the irrealis contingent
on that condition. The irrealis is not indicated morphologically
in Klingon. <b>jImIp net jalchugh, puH Duj chu' vIje'</b><i> If I
were rich, I would buy a new car.</i> The Klingon sentence
literally means <i>if one imagine that I am rich, I buy a new
car.</i> The irrealis comes strictly from the idea that someone
is just envisioning something. The Klingon irrealis of this kind
is in the indicative mood. There is no grammatical subjunctive
mood in Klingon.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:29783C8C-2F60-4A65-8596-D1062E539A50@mac.com">
<div class="">Without clarification from Okrand, just working from
my experience with the language, {vaj} logically puts me in the
world being imagined, but {ghIq} doesn’t give me that logical
link back into the imagined world. It’s just a time stamp for
the next clause.</div>
</blockquote>
<p>I don't see <b>vaj</b> as necessarily implying something
hypothetical. <b>HIchwIj vIpeppu'. vaj muHIvpu' jagh.</b><i> I
raised my pistol. So the enemy attacked me.</i><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:29783C8C-2F60-4A65-8596-D1062E539A50@mac.com">
<div class="">Even with {vaj}, I wince a little, because it tempts
me toward stringing together two Sentence As Object
constructions, which is never a good thing. {jImIp net jalchugh
vaj vIghro’ tIQ vIje’ net jalnIS, je.}</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Okrand has decreed that <b>net jalchugh</b> is how Klingons form
this kind of irrealis, so your sentence is not required. <b>jImIp
net jalchugh vIghro' tIQ vIje'</b><i> </i>is all you need to
express the concept of what I <i>would</i> do. This is one of
those Okrand-said-it-so-it's-true things.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:29783C8C-2F60-4A65-8596-D1062E539A50@mac.com">In any
case, I really think that you would better describe your fantasy
of being rich and buying an ancient cat with {mIp’a’wIj vIjalDI’
reH vIghro’ tIQ vIje’ta’bogh vIjal je.} "When I imagine my great
wealth, I always also imagine the ancient cat I bought.”</blockquote>
<p>Except this is not how Okrand describes the irrealis construction
required. He doesn't say it can't have its variations, but you're
going out of your way to move mayqel's conforming use to a
non-conforming one.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:29783C8C-2F60-4A65-8596-D1062E539A50@mac.com">
<div class="">It doesn’t even require an irrealis, since you
imagine the wealth and you imagine the cat. These are real
imaginings. The forthrightness and clarity feel natural for the
language.</div>
</blockquote>
<p>That's not what irrealis means. The hypothetical part of the
sentence is the buying of the ancient cat, not the existence of
the cat or the wealth. The existence of these other things is not
commented upon in the sentence.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:29783C8C-2F60-4A65-8596-D1062E539A50@mac.com">
<div class="">What you want is an irrealis equivalent of the way
time stamps work in Klingon. “Tomorrow, I go visit my cousin. We
go shopping. We buy coffee. We sit and chat. I go home.” All
that happens “tomorrow”. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">You want to say, “I imagine that I am wealthy”, and
you want that context of an imagined Universe that has a wealthy
you in it to be the context that holds for a later statement.
I’m not sure that Klingon can do that.</div>
</blockquote>
<p>That is exactly what <b>net jalchugh</b> does. <b>jImIp net
jalchugh, lorwI' vISuch, 'aH wIje', qa'vIn wIje', maba' 'ej
majaw, ghIq juH vIchegh.<i> </i></b><i>If I were wealthy, I
would visit my cousin, we would buy stuff, we would buy coffee,
we would sit and chat, and then I would go home.</i> All of that
only happens in my fantasy of "if I were rich."<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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