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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/23/2019 7:57 PM, De'vID wrote:<br>
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<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, 22 Apr 2019 at
15:09, SuStel <<a href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">sustel@trimboli.name</a>>
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<div>> When trying to draw conclusions about what bits of
Klingon that appear on Star Trek, we don't get to pick and
choose which bits count as canon and which don't.</div>
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<div>But don't we? I mean, choosing to treat only what comes
from Okrand as canon is still a choice.</div>
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<p>So is choosing Klingon that appears on a Star Trek show that was
written by someone who has actually attempted to learn Klingon. So
is choosing Klingon that only appears in officially licensed Star
Trek books. So is choosing to add everyone's personal additions to
the language to your personal dictionary.</p>
<p>There is no naturally-spoken Klingon. There is no native
population. So we HAVE to choose an approach to what is good
Klingon and what isn't. It's unavoidable.</p>
<p>The policy of this list is that canon is what Okrand says it is,
nothing else. (This list's <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.kli.org/wiki/tlhIngan-Hol_email_discussion_group">page</a>
on kli.org points to this list's <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/PortalCanon">FAQ</a>, which
is on Lieven's wiki, and it says "The word canon refers to
official original sources for Klingon words, that is to
pronouncements by Marc Okrand, because nobody else can create
canon.")</p>
<p>The KLI defines canon on its own <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.kli.org/wiki/canon">page</a>, which says
"Canonical tlhIngan Hol: that which is written (or sometimes
merely spoken) by Marc Okrand." It describes some alternative
views, such as your own, but the KLI's site itself repeats the
quotation on Lieven's wiki, and supports the "only Okrand" view.</p>
<p>Now consider Joe Shmoe, who wants to learn Klingon. He discovers
there's a dictionary, a traveler's language guide, and a book of
proverbs. He acquires the language tapes. He's feeling pretty good
that he's got all the learning materials there are. Then he finds
out that a bunch of people on the Internet are saying that Marc
Okrand has spoken to them personally and told them the word for <i>be
opposite </i>is <b>Dop.</b> Why should he accept that word?
Okrand never published it. It has as much "canonicity" to Joe as a
deleted scene on the cutting-room floor.</p>
<p>Which policy is the correct one? None, objectively. We're talking
about making silly sounds while pretending to speak the language
of an alien race. If you're going to play along, you've got to
pick one, or no one's going to agree on what they're saying. You
can't rely on natural-language forces, because this isn't a
natural language. If you had a large enough speaking base and
practiced it through generations, maybe you could make it "go
native," but none of us have that sense of rightness or wrongness
in Klingon that comes with a native language.</p>
<p>I don't understand the burning desire to proclaim <i>Discovery</i>
Klingon as canonical. The translators did their best to stick to
canonical Klingon, so it's not like bringing in <i>Discovery</i>
Klingon will usher in fantastic new vistas in linguistic
understanding. At best it would add additional data points in
support of the current status quo of understanding of canonical
Klingon, tautologically.</p>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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