<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/11/2019 11:54 AM, Lieven L. Litaer
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:72b756af-aeda-94a7-b63f-d07663041477@gmx.de">Am
11.04.2019 um 11:28 schrieb De'vID:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite" style="color: #000000;">latter is
perfectly clear. While Okrand's examples are brief, they were
<br>
clearly chosen to disambiguate whether actual contact is
included in the
<br>
meaning of {SIch}.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Okrand wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite" style="color: #000000;">The intended
meaning is (b), as in {paqvetlh DaSIchlaH'a'?} —
<br>
maybe the book's on a high shelf. Or {paq vISIch 'e' vInID},
which could
<br>
be translated "I reached for the book. The (a) meaning is
covered by {paw}."
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Okay, I got the point with {paw}, no discussion. But the question
<br>
{paqvetlh DaSIchlaH'a'} asks whether the goal can be achieved,
right? If
<br>
{SIch} means only "reach for" in the sense of stretching your arm,
then
<br>
it does not include the touching. I can reach for the stars, but
surely
<br>
won't touch them.
<br>
</blockquote>
<p><b>SIch</b> doesn't mean <i>reach for;</i> it means <i>reach.</i>
The <i>reach for</i> interpretation only works for his example <b>paq
vISIch 'e' vInID;</b> it's the <b>'e' vInID</b> that makes the
accomplishment uncertain, the <i>reach for.</i> If you just said
<b>paq vISIch,</b> you're saying you stretch out your hand and
grasp the book.</p>
<p>The correct sense of <i>reach</i> in the Dictionary.com
definition is number 3: "to succeed in touching or seizing with an
outstretched hand, a pole, etc." This is what Okrand describes <b>SIch</b>
as meaning. It's not clear to me whether it could also mean sense
5: "to stretch or extend so as to touch or meet"; can we say <b>'aqroS
SIch yorghmey</b><i> The bookcase reaches the ceiling?</i></p>
<p><b>Hovmey vISIch 'e' vInID</b><i> I reach for the stars;</i>
literally <i>I try to reach the stars.</i> This would only be
interpreted literally; the English idiom meaning <i>achieve the
highest goal</i> isn't expressed. It says I'm stretching out my
hand in a (vain) attempt to grasp the stars.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:72b756af-aeda-94a7-b63f-d07663041477@gmx.de">
So if {SIch} includes the touching, the answer to {DaSIchlaH'a'}
is only
<br>
'yes' if I can touch. If {SIch} is only the movement
<br>
("reach-for-stars"), then the answer is always 'yes', unless my
arm is
<br>
broken. But if {SIch} includes both possibilities, both answers
'yes'
<br>
and 'no' are always correct: I can always reach for something,
even if I
<br>
cannot reach it.
<br>
</blockquote>
<p><b>SIch</b> includes the touching. The answer is only yes.<br>
</p>
<p><b>vItlhap</b><i> I take it.<br>
</i><b>vItlhap 'e' vInID</b><i> I try to take it.</i> I take some
kind of action to enable myself to take it.<br>
</p>
<p>Same relationship.<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
</body>
</html>