<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">I concede the point. Okrand has a very slippery range of use for {latlh}. Sometimes, it makes sense in terms of it being a stand-alone noun in a noun-noun genitive construction. Perhaps most often, it does make sense interpreted that way. Then again, there are times when it’s more like he just took the English phrase “other [noun]” and replaced it with {latlh [noun]} in the Klingon sentence.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">It rubs me the wrong way that he does stuff like this, that makes translation easier by not being grammatically consistent with what a noun is supposed to be doing in the language with a word he has only defined as a noun. It’s like having all aliens look like humans wearing prosthetics, or like being able to breathe on every planet they land on and having Earth-like gravity on every planet they go to.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">It’s a step towards sloppy translation, and it doesn’t stick to the fictional culture with grippy-enough feet. It’s just kinda ugly, making me look for alternatives, even if doing it this way is perfectly acceptable.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">It’s not my standard for the list, but it is my standard for myself. I just don’t enjoy using a noun as if it were an English adjective, preserving English word order because English has a word that is both a noun and an adjective, while Klingon supposedly doesn’t. “On the other hand”. In English, “other” is not a noun.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If {latlh} were an adjectival verb meaning “be other”, then it would follow the noun it modifies.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">But no. It just goes before the other noun because that’s how it happens in English. We can be that sloppy. It’s okay.</div><br class=""><div class="">
<div dir="auto" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan<br class=""><br class="">rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.</div><div style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><br class=""></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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<div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Feb 22, 2019, at 11:13 AM, SuStel <<a href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" class="">sustel@trimboli.name</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/22/2019 10:54 AM, Will Martin
wrote:<br class="">
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<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:1B93B9FC-4D4F-4093-BE45-8E2CBCAA1F1F@mac.com" class="">
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<div class="">It’s easy to forget that {latlh} is a noun and not quite the
grammatical equivalent of the English word “other”. I suspect we
overuse it when alternatives would be clearer. </div>
</blockquote><p class="">Some canonical uses of <b class="">latlh</b> that are unambiguously not<i class="">
</i>as a standalone noun...</p>
<blockquote class=""><p class=""><b class="">HeghDI' tlhIngan SuvwI' pagh tlhIngan SuvwI' HoHlu'DI'
Heghtay lulop latlh tlhInganpu'.<br class="">
</b><i class="">When a Klingon warrior dies or is killed, other Klingons
may perform a ceremonial howl or yell as part of the Klingon
death ritual.</i> (SkyBox S31)</p><p class=""><b class="">latlh HIvje'Daq 'Iw HIq bIr yIqang!<br class="">
</b><i class="">Pour the cold bloodwine into another glass! </i>(KGT)<br class="">
</p><p class=""><b class="">latlh HIvje'Daq 'Iw HIq bIr vIqang<i class=""><br class="">
</i></b><i class="">I pour </i><i class="">the cold bloodwine into another
glass</i> (KGT)</p><p class=""><b class="">QIt wa’ qa’ nuD veqlargh<br class="">
QIt latlh qa’ nuD veqlargh<br class="">
Hegh lurur mInDu’Daj<br class="">
</b><i class="">Fek’lhr inspects them,<br class="">
One by one,<br class="">
With his deadly glance.</i> (PB)</p><p class=""><b class="">Sepvetlh latlh DopDaq<br class="">
Hatlh lengtaHvIS qeylIS<br class="">
lutlhej tlhInganpu’ Hem mI’ nIb<br class="">
</b><i class="">On the other side of the land,<br class="">
Kahless traveled the lands<br class="">
With an equal number of proud Klingons.</i> (PB — notice
the <i class="">other side,</i> which was being talked about before)</p><p class=""><b class="">vIHbe’choH latlh SuvwI’pu’<br class="">
bey HoS QoymeH<br class="">
‘IjmeH QamtaH</b><i class=""><b class=""><br class="">
</b></i><i class="">The rest of the warriors stopped,<br class="">
They stood and listened,<br class="">
To hear the mighty howl.</i> (PB)<br class="">
<br class="">
</p>
</blockquote><p class="">Okrand seems to be fairly free with his use of <b class="">latlh.</b>
When modifying another noun, it sometimes means some unspecified
extra number, sometimes it means one other, it sometimes means the
next one, it sometimes means all the remaining somethings, and it
sometimes means the opposite version of something.<br class="">
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<blockquote class=""><p class=""><br class="">
</p>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name/" moz-do-not-send="true">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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