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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/29/2019 11:23 AM, Daniel Dadap
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:4176D3A7-CDA3-49A1-8C32-437EDDC177D1@dadap.net">
<div dir="ltr">On Jan 29, 2019, at 10:14, SuStel <<a
href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" moz-do-not-send="true">sustel@trimboli.name</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">This flexibility of objects is why you can
simultaneously have <b>qaja'pu'</b><i> I told you</i> and <b>lut
vIja'pu'</b><i> I told the story.</i> In the first case
there's no direct object to get in the way of the indirect
object being the syntactic object of the verb. In the second
the verb has an explicit direct object. If you wanted to say
whom you told the story to, you would say <b>puqvaD lut
vIja'.</b> This isn't even a <b>-moH</b> issue. Both direct
and indirect objects can go in the object position, but if you
have both the direct object wins and the indirect object goes
to <b>-vaD.</b></div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<div>Interesting analysis. I actually like this as an explanation
for the prefix trick as well.</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Exactly! The two aren't quite the same thing, since the prefix
trick only works with first- and second-person indirect objects,
and only works when the indirect object isn't actually stated. In
<b>SoQ </b><b>qajatlh</b> <i>I give a speech to you,</i> the
prefix is made to agree with an unstated indirect object of <b>SoH,
</b>but as soon as you state the indirect object, the prefix has
to agree with the stated direct object: <b>SoHvaD SoQ vIjatlh.</b>
<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:4176D3A7-CDA3-49A1-8C32-437EDDC177D1@dadap.net">
<div> You have two objects as well, but since the indirect object
is indicated by the prefix, neither needs to take -vaD, although
the unstated (because it’s encoded in the prefix) object is the
one that normally would. It’s similar to your example of
qaja'pu' which has an “indirect” object only, except with an
explicit “direct” object as well.</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>The thing about all the <b>ja'</b> examples in canon is that not
one of them is conclusive. We have lots of examples like <b>qaja'pu',</b>
but never one that is <b>SoH qaja'pu'.</b> Once we got <b>ja'</b>
in <i>paq'batlh,</i> I think the example was <b>lut vIja'</b> or
something like that, it was clear to me that sentences like <b>qaja'pu'</b>
are either the prefix trick in action or<i> that it doesn't
actually matter all that much whether the object is direct or
indirect.</i> Then we saw <b>ghojmoH</b> flip-flop the same
way.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:4176D3A7-CDA3-49A1-8C32-437EDDC177D1@dadap.net">
<div>For transitive verbs with -moH I’m still trying to wrap my
head around exactly what’s happening there (e.g. puqvaD nIQ
vISopmoH) but I’m happy to handwave it away with “objects are
flexible” magic dust for now.</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><b>puqvaD nIQ vISopmoH</b><i> I make the child eat breakfast.<br>
</i></p>
<p>The action of the sentence revolves around <b>Sop</b> <i>eat.</i>
With this verb, someone is eating and something is being eaten. If
the something that is being eaten is mentioned, it <i>must</i> be
the object of the verb, no matter what suffixes the verb has on
it. It is being acted upon directly, so it is the object. Here, <b>nIQ</b>
<i>breakfast</i> is that object, a direct object.</p>
<p>Now, since I am the subject and I am causing something to happen,
I am not the one eating. I am causing this situation to happen,
and my target for all this is the <b>puq </b><i>child.</i>
Therefore, the child is the indirect object.</p>
<p>Or to put it another way: I cause eating to occur. Breakfast is
eaten. The child is the recipient of what I'm doing, by being made
to eat.</p>
<p>Or to put it yet another way: <b>nIQ vISopmoH</b> <i>I cause
breakfast to be eaten.</i> I target the child with this action;
the child receives this package of being made to eat. <b>puqvaD.</b><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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