<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/24/2018 10:47 AM, Daniel Dadap
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:D686769D-44FC-4280-A63C-F6A0F47ABB4F@dadap.net">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">On Dec 23, 2018, at 06:14, SuStel <<a
href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" moz-do-not-send="true">sustel@trimboli.name</a>>
wrote:</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:B78EFC5B-FE12-486E-B85B-C46E8741C8C4@dadap.net">
<div>
<div>I know the dreaming part has been removed for
simplicity here, but can the frame of reference not be
the dream? In the context of the dream, if you’re
thinking of the -taHvIS part, the describing isn’t
necessarily completed.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>I suppose -pu’ captures the “once” meaning from the
original sentence I was aiming for: “there’s a land that
I dreamed of once in a lullaby”.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>The frame of reference for this sentence, that is, the
viewpoint from which it is being spoken, is after the
describing is completed, but while the region is still
thereabouts. That's what makes <b>Del</b> need a <b>-pu'.</b>
Being thereabouts is not a completed action.<br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<div>You’re speaking about this sentence specifically, and not
broadly, right? Because it is my understanding that in general,
the frame of reference can be from something within the sentence
rather than the actual frame of reference in which the speaker
is speaking and the listener is listening.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For example:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>HeSwI'pu' luqoplu'ta' mapawpa'</div>
<div>The criminals will have been arrested before we arrive </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In this case, we’re talking about an action that will have
been completed at some point in the future, from the frame of
reference of the utterance, but is already completed from the
frame of reference of our future arrival.</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Yes, I was saying that in that sentence, the viewpoint, or frame
of reference, is the moment of speaking. That's not necessarily
true for every sentence, as you illustrate.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:D686769D-44FC-4280-A63C-F6A0F47ABB4F@dadap.net">
<div>So why can’t</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Sep vIDellu' jInajtaHvIS</div>
<div>A region was described to me while I was dreaming</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>be from the frame of reference of jInajtaH - I was dreaming?
By extension,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>pa' Sep vIDellu'bogh jInajtaHvIS tu'lu'</div>
<div>Thereabouts / a region / which was described to me / while I
was dreaming / is found (I chose this word order for this
example because it works more or less in both Klingon and
English)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Here, why can’t Del be something that happened while
jInajtaH, and in the frame of reference of jInajtaH, be an
in-the-moment, not-completed, not-continuous action?</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Because you're asking the listener to adopt two viewpoints
simultaneously: the moment in the dream when you're told about the
region, and the moment the sentence is being spoken in which the
region is found.</p>
<p>The main clause of the sentence, and the main idea, is that the
region exists ("is found"). That's your viewpoint, your frame of
reference. Everything else needs to be given in relation to that.
There IS a region; it WAS described. <b>Sep tu'lu'; jIHvaD
Dellu'pu'.</b></p>
<p><br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
</body>
</html>