<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Dec 22, 2018, at 7:56 PM, SuStel <<a href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" class="">sustel@trimboli.name</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/22/2018 9:01 PM, Daniel Dadap
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:5C7FD1F0-3E91-42E3-A1E0-CAFA578B578E@dadap.net" class="">
<div class="">The original thing I was asking about was part of a relative
clause so I wanted to simplify the example but I guess I made it
too simple and omitted an actual indirect object which was the
point of the prefix trick. The clause was “Sep vIDellu'bogh”
which I used in the sentence:</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">pa' Sep'e' jInajtaHvIS vIDellu'bogh tu'lu'</div>
<div class="">Over there there is a region that was described to me while I
was dreaming</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">(There are probably other problems with this sentence; I
wasn’t sure where to place the jInajtaHvIS, for example, which
is also why I wanted to simplify the example.)</div>
</blockquote><p class="">Yes, the <b class="">jInajtaHvIS</b> makes it way too complicated...
probably even without considering the prefix trick. It might make
grammatical sense with the <b class="">jInajtaHvIS</b> between the <b class="">pa'</b>
and <b class="">Sep'e'</b> or after the <b class="">vIDellu'bogh,</b> but at this
point I'd be worried about the listener's ability to parse the
nested clauses.</p><p class="">If we drop the dreaming bit for now, and show the sentence
without the prefix trick, we have</p>
<blockquote class=""><p class=""><b class="">pa' jIHvaD Sep Dellu'pu'bogh tu'lu'<br class="">
</b><i class="">The region which was described to me is thereabouts.<br class="">
</i>(Notice that the <b class="">-pu'</b> is required; the describing is
already done.)</p><div class=""><br class=""></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>I know the dreaming part has been removed for simplicity here, but can the frame of reference not be the dream? In the context of the dream, if you’re thinking of the -taHvIS part, the describing isn’t necessarily completed.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>I suppose -pu’ captures the “once” meaning from the original sentence I was aiming for: “there’s a land that I dreamed of once in a lullaby”.</div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class=""><blockquote class="">
</blockquote><p class="">I don't see why the prefix trick wouldn't work here, again with
the caveat that we've never seen the prefix trick on a verb with
an indefinite subject:</p>
<blockquote class=""><p class=""><b class="">pa' Sep vIDellu'pu'bogh tu'lu'<br class="">
</b><i class="">The region which was described to me is thereabouts.</i><br class="">
</p>
</blockquote><p class="">If I had to put the dreaming back in, and if I had to keep it all
in one sentence, I'd probably do it like this:</p>
<blockquote class=""><p class=""><b class="">pa' Sep vIDellu'pu'bogh jInajtaHvIS tu'lu'<br class="">
</b><i class="">The region which was described to me while I was dreaming
is thereabouts.</i><br class="">
</p>
</blockquote><p class=""><br class=""></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>Yeah, two sentences would obviously have been easier. My two sentence version of this was: “jInajtaHvIS Sep vIDellu’; pa’ Sepvam tu’lu’.”</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Good to know that the jInajtaHvIS can go after the -boghed verb. I think "pa’ Sep vIDellu’pu’bogh jInajtaHvIS tu’lu’" was actually exactly my first draft of that sentence, but then I was worried that the jInajtaHvIS was a time stamp, and had to go at the beginning, but if it came at the very beginning of the sentence, it might make it sound like the observation of the region (since tu’ is the actual main verb of the sentence) is what happened during the dream, and not the describing. Then at around the same time I started worrying about whether the prefix trick would work with -lu’. I went with topic-marking the Sep and then putting jInajtaHvIS after Sep’e’ because there’s a rule that lets you move time stamps after a topicalized object. (I’m traveling for the holidays and didn’t bring any Klingon books with me, but I’m pretty sure it’s in TKDa.) It also made the jInajtaHvIS seem more obviously like it was talking about the Del and not the tu’. And on second thought, I could see a reading of “pa’ Sep vIDellu’pu’bogh jInajtaHvIS tu’lu’” where the tu’lu’ is what happens during the jInajtaHvIS.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Anyway, if a -taHvISed verb isn’t a time stamp, that’s good to know. And I guess it isn’t, because when you add an object, something like “jIHaghqu'taH paqvetlh vIlaDtaHvIS” doesn’t sound wrong.</div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class=""><p class="">
</p>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:5C7FD1F0-3E91-42E3-A1E0-CAFA578B578E@dadap.net" class="">
<div class="">I went with “muDelbogh vay'” since it didn’t affect syllable
count or the rhyme at the end of the line (rhyming with “jenqu'”
in the previous line) and the meter actually worked out better
too that way.</div>
</blockquote><p class="">I'm not going to mess with meter or rhyme.</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name/">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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