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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/22/2018 10:41 AM, Lieven L. Litaer
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:c0d03e8f-cc41-e9db-29ac-3b5c35b38c56@gmx.de">Am
22.08.2018 um 15:57 schrieb SuStel:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">I would point out that only *'Iv* and
*nuq* (and, by extension of suffix, *nuqDaq*) act like pronouns,
substituting for the answer. </blockquote>
<br>
Who says "only"?
<br>
<br>
This is again a situation where Okrand does not say "this is how
it works", but he does not say the opposite. Just because he did
no mention that {'ar} works like {nuq} does not mean that it does
not.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Jesus Christ.</p>
<p>TKD presents a master list of question words, then it singles out
<b>'Iv</b> and <b>nuq</b> and says they fit into the sentence in
the position that would be occupied by the answer.</p>
<p>It then says <b>nuqDaq</b> is <b>nuq + -Daq</b> and says it
goes at the beginning where any locative phrase would go.</p>
<p>Then it says <b>chay', ghorgh, </b>and<b> qatlh</b> go at the
beginning too. <b>chay',</b> he adds, can be used as a standalone
sentence.<br>
</p>
<p>Finally, it says, <b>'ar</b> follows the noun to which it
refers, and that noun may not have a plural suffix on it.<br>
</p>
<p>Okrand was not being vague. He gives very clear instructions for
how to use these words. He adds a new rule in <i>Conversational
Klingon</i> about <b>'ar</b> being used as a standalone like <b>chay',</b>
and he adds a new word <b>'arlogh</b> later on. He also clarifies
that the pronounness of <b>'Iv</b> and <b>nuq</b> extend to the
ability to be verb-like when used as copulas. But he has never
done anything to contradict these rules, and he has never done
anything to suggest that <b>'ar</b> can act like a pronoun in the
way <b>'Iv</b> and <b>nuq</b> can. He has the right to do so
later, but he hasn't so far.</p>
<p>So forgive me if I condense all those paragraphs down to "only."
BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT IT MEANS.</p>
<p>I'll tell you what. I hereby declare that relative clauses don't
require head nouns. And I have Okrand's own words to back me up.
He says in a file on the Klingon Language Lab CD, <b>Dajatlhbogh
vISovbe'</b><i> </i>and it's matched by another files that
says <i>I don't know what you said.</i> After all, Okrand never
said that relative clauses HAVE to have head nouns, right? So
start accepting this phrase and the grammar behind it.<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:c0d03e8f-cc41-e9db-29ac-3b5c35b38c56@gmx.de">
This is just my opinion, but I think that {'ar Dalegh} is
absolutely correct. It even follows the rule if you think of a
"zero"-noun:
<br>
{[Doch] 'ar Dalegh}. "how many [things] do you see?"
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>What the hell is a zero-noun? That isn't a thing in Klingon.<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:c0d03e8f-cc41-e9db-29ac-3b5c35b38c56@gmx.de">
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">*does not substitute itself for a number.
This is clear not only because *'ar* comes after the noun, not
before, and constrains its use of a plural suffix, but because
*'ar* can be used on mass nouns where numbers cannot. You can
ask *nIn 'ar wIghaj*/How much fuel do we have?/ but you cannot
say *vagh nIn wIghaj */We have five fuels./
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Don't forget it can be used on mass nouns, but also on countable
things.
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>I haven't forgotten that. It's not relevant to the point.</p>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:c0d03e8f-cc41-e9db-29ac-3b5c35b38c56@gmx.de">By the way,
in English, the problem is the same: You can ask "How much fuel do
we have?" but you cannot say "We have five fuels" either.
<br>
</blockquote>
<p>Which should have been completely clear from my post, and which
just further demonstrates the point. I had originally started my
example with <b>bIQ 'ar,</b> but then I realized that someone was
going to sniffle and say that you can talk about <i>five waters</i>
in English if you imagine them as bottles of water, so I went
looking for something that didn't have that possibility in
English.<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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