<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<style type="text/css" style="display:none"><!--P{margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} --></style>
</head>
<body dir="ltr" style="font-size:12pt;color:#000000;background-color:#FFFFFF;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">
<p>><span style="background-color:white;"> The difference between completing not-doing and not completing doing seems too hair-splitting for Klingons...<br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="background-color:white;"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="background-color:white;">I'm sure there are hair-splitters in just about any culture with enough people.<br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="background-color:white;"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="background-color:white;">Also, while the case of "not-doing" may be a bit artificial, I'd say it can be quite a meaningful distinction. It becomes clearer when using -ta' rather than -pu', though:<br>
<br>
jIQongta'be' - "I have not successfully slept" (...because I have insomnia)<br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="background-color:white;">jIQongbe'ta' - "I have successfully not-slept" (...because I was on watch)<br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="background-color:white;"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="background-color:white;">vIbejta'be' - "I have not successfully watched it" (...because my reception is terrible)<br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="background-color:white;">vIbejbe'ta' - "I have successfully not-watched it" (...because I promised we'd watch it together)<br>
</span></p>
<span style="background-color:white;"><br>
</span>
<p><span style="background-color:white;">chaH vIja'ta'be' - "I have not successfully told them" (...because I haven't known how to break it to them)<br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="background-color:white;">chaH vIja'be'ta' - "I have successfully not-told them" (...even though I'm dying to)</span></p>
<p><span style="background-color:white;"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="background-color:white;">You can even go a step further:<br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="background-color:white;">jIQongbe'ta'be' - "I have not successfully not-slept" (...because I was just so sleepy)<br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="background-color:white;">vIbejbe'ta'be' - "I have not successfully not-watched it" (...because I was just too eager to see what would happen next)<br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="background-color:white;">chaH vIja'be'ta'be' - "I have not successfully not-told them" (...because I'm terrible at keeping secrets)<br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="background-color:white;"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="background-color:white;">> or even English, since I have to resort to made-up terms like
<em>not-doing</em> to describe it.<br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="background-color:white;"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="background-color:white;">We do make distinctions like that all the time, though; we just usually don't use the word "not" to do it:<br>
<br>
"I have remained awake." vs. "I have not slept."<br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="background-color:white;">"I have fasted." vs. "I have not eaten."</span><span style="background-color:white;"></span><span style="background-color:white;"></span></p>
<p><span style="background-color:white;">"I have refrained from reading the book." vs. "I have not read the book."<br>
</span></p>
<p><span style="background-color:white;"><br>
</span></p>
<p>In Klingon, many words don't have (known) separate known stems for their contradictions or opposites; we usually express those using negations.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>For example:<br>
Qoch ("disagree"), vIH ("move"), vul ("be unconscious"), jaQ ("be deep"), yoy ("be upside-down"), qur ("be greedy"), etc.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>This gives us a natural way to express more complex negations that sound clunky in English ("I need to not-eat", "I can not-count", "I have successfully not-completely destroyed it"), which I think is pretty neat.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>//loghaD<br>
<span style="background-color:white;"></span></p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33);">
<hr tabindex="-1" style="display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, March 9, 2018 20:19<br>
<b>To:</b> tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [tlhIngan Hol] vIta'pu'be' vs vIta'be'pu'</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/9/2018 2:15 PM, Felix Malmenbeck wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">I'd say you probably could say «vIta'be'pu'.» and be understood, but «vIta'pu'be'.» is more categorical: Not only has there been an instance of me not doing it, but also there have been no instances of me doing it (in the scope of time
being considered).</blockquote>
<p>I don't think there's any difference in meaning between <b>vIta'be'pu'</b> and
<b>vIta'pu'be'</b> as far as anything we've ever seen. The difference between completing not-doing and not completing doing seems too hair-splitting for Klingons... or even English, since I have to resort to made-up terms like
<i>not-doing</i> to describe it.<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>