<div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">nIqolay Q:</span><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">> I do see where you're coming from here. If {vIghro'mey} refers to</span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">> a group of cats, and {Hoch vIghro'mey} means "all cats, all the </span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">> cats", then if {maH} refers to a group of people, then why wouldn't</span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">> {Hoch maH} be used to mean "all of us, all the people in the </span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">> group of us"? </span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">Yes, you're right. That's exactly what I'm trying to say.</span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div dir="auto"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12.8px">Anyway, although I can understand (or think I can) the reasons presented so far against the use of {maH Hoch}, unfortunately I cannot *feel* them. If that makes sense.</span></font></div><div dir="auto"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></font></div><div dir="auto"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12.8px">Perhaps, it's the way I'm influenced by Greek on this matter, still, I realize that since there is such controversy on this matter it is best if I refrain from using it.</span></font></div><div dir="auto"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></font></div><div dir="auto"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12.8px">So, I'll just settle for a humble..</span></font></div><div dir="auto"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></font></div><div dir="auto"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12.8px">{vIghro'mey DImuSHa'. naDev muS pagh'e'}</span></font></div><div dir="auto"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></font></div><div dir="auto"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12.8px">Perhaps, using the time-honored-qeylIS-approved method of writing in a retarded-multiple-sentence-way, even if it is in order to say the simplest things, is indeed the way to go..</span></font></div><div dir="auto"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></font></div><div dir="auto"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12.8px">~ nI'ghma</span></font></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Jan 30, 2018 5:54 PM, "nIqolay Q" <<a href="mailto:niqolay0@gmail.com">niqolay0@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 10:00 AM, mayqel qunenoS <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" target="_blank">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">DloraH:<br>
<span class="m_-5281846975294172538gmail-">> But "we", by its nature, refers to more than one entity.<br>
> vIghro' is singular.<br>
<br>
</span>I'm afraid I can't understand the point you are trying to make.<br>
<br>
If we say {Hoch vIghro'} then we mean "each cat"". If we say {Hoch<br>
vIghro'mey} then we mean "all cats". By the same rationale {Hoch maH}<br>
must mean "all we".<br>
<br>
vIghro'mey = many cats<br>
maH = us (a number of people being considered together). (The {-mey}<br>
is included in the concept of {maH}).</blockquote><div><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">Technically {maH} would include the concept of {-pu'}! <br></div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">I do see where you're coming from here. If {vIghro'mey} refers to a group of cats, and {Hoch vIghro'mey} means "all cats, all the cats", then if {maH} refers to a group of people, then why wouldn't {Hoch maH} be used to mean "all of us, all the people in the group of us"? (Or at least, why aren't the other Klingonists like myself using it that way, since Maltz hasn't weighed in one way or another.)</div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">I think the distinction here is between a plural noun and a noun that collectively refers to a group. For instance, {Hoch ghom} would mean "each group", not "all of the members of the group", and {Hoch ghommey} would mean "all groups". So we're left with the question: is {maH} similar to {vIghro'mey} or to {ghom}? It's grammatically plural, like {vIghro'mey}, but refers to its constituents as a whole and not as individuals, like {ghom}. Some of the posters here, like myself, are treating it more like {ghom}. At least for me, I'm doing this because it feels like the "treats the group as a whole" element is more important than the "grammatically plural" element.</div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">So if {maH} does work like {ghom}, then {Hoch maH} would refer to "each 'group of us'", and it's somewhat difficult to understand quite what that would mean. (I'm thinking of the TNG episode where they encountered hundreds of Enterprises from parallel universes. Someone on the bridge crew might refer to the totality of the various parallel bridge crews as {Hoch maH}. Many weird constructions involving pronouns would only really make sense in cases of multiple or confused identities. They'd probably be ungrammatical, but the weirdness of the construction would reflect the weirdness of the situation. {'ach DoS vIchIlqa'.}) We know that {Hoch} following a noun means something like "all of the given noun, the entirety of the noun", and following a group noun, it would seem to mean "all the members of that group" rather than "all the groups". So that's why I initially suggested {maH Hoch}.<br></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default"></div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif" class="gmail_default">Of course, this is all speculation. (I'd like to think it's reasonably-informed speculation.) It's possible, for instance, that you can't use pronouns in a {Hoch} construction at all, and you'd need to rephrase it as something like {ghommaj Hoch} "the entirety of our group". However, we don't know one way or another, and my general inclination in such ambiguous circumstances is to not assume something is forbidden.<br></div></div></div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
tlhIngan-Hol mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org">tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.<wbr>cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div></div>