<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<style type="text/css" style="display:none"><!--P{margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} --></style>
</head>
<body dir="ltr" style="font-size:12pt;color:#000000;background-color:#FFFFFF;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">
<p>The simplest solution is to simply put {qaStaHvIS DIS 'Iq} last; that leaves the least potential for ambiguity, and also doesn't tax one's attention span quite as much.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>As a general principle, I'd say playing a subordinate clause before {'e'} strikes me as being grammatically correct; just a bit confusing.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>It's worth noting that there is at least one canonical example where a subordinate clause appears to be separated from its main clause by a sentence being used as an object:<br>
<br>
{bIQapqu'meH tar DaSop 'e' DatIvnIS.}</p>
<p>"To really succeed, you must enjoy eating poison." (TKW)</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Part of me would like to see {bIQapqu'meH} moved to after {tar DaSop}, because otherwise it reads more as "You must enjoy (eating poison in order to succeed).", rather than "(You must enjoy eating poison) in order to succeed."</p>
<p>However, Klingon is intended to resemble a natural language, rather than a perfectly logical and unambiguous one spoken by robots, and in that regard this sentence structure makes sense to me: Klingons are accustomed to purpose clauses being placed at (or
near) the start of an utterance, and the essence of the sentence is quite clear, so this is probably the most natural-sounding way to write it.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>(For similar reasons, I often hesitate a bit when writing something like {vaj teH 'e' vIHar.}, because {vaj} is an adverbial and not a conjunction, and I want it to modify {vIHar}, not {teH}. However, placing it first seems more natural, and avoids the interpretation
of "It is true, so I believe it.")<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>//loghaD<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div style="color: rgb(33, 33, 33);">
<hr tabindex="-1" style="display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 1, 2017 15:52<br>
<b>To:</b> tlhingan-hol@kli.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [tlhIngan Hol] qaStaHvIS in a sao</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="auto">It is not that the {-'e'} on the {romuluSnganpu'} is "close" to the {'e'} of the sao, which troubles me.
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">It is another thing which puzzles me..</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">If the {qaStaHvIS DIS 'Iq} precedes the {'e'} of the sao, then will the {'e'} of the sao continue to refer to the {jaghpu' chaH romuluSnganpu''e'}, or will it refer to the {qaStaHvIS DIS 'Iq} instead ?</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I mean if the {qaStaHvIS..} directly precedes the sao, then the "thing which we believe" will still be "that the romulans are enemies" or the "during too many years" ?</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">~ nI'ghma</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Dec 1, 2017 16:34, "Steven Boozer" <<a href="mailto:sboozer@uchicago.edu">sboozer@uchicago.edu</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-US">
<div class="m_-3228545722755268175WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#1f497d">Why not move the time stamp – in this case a time subordinate clause – to the beginning of the sentence where we usually see it?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> qaStaHvIS DIS 'Iq jaghpu' chaH romuluSnganpu''e' 'e' wIHar<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#1f497d"> For too long we believed that the Romulans were enemies.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#1f497d"> We believed the Romulans were enemies far too long.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#1f497d">Though {-‘e’ ‘e’} does look odd, I admit.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#1f497d">--Voragh<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">
</span>nI'ghma<span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">If we want to say "while too many years are happening, we believed that the romulans are enemies", then do we write:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">{jaghpu' chaH romuluSnganpu''e'; qaStaHvIS DIS 'Iq 'e' wIHar}<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1f497d"> </span>or<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">{jaghpu' chaH romuluSnganpu''e'; 'e' wIHar qaStaHvIS DIS 'Iq}<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Can the {qaStaHvIS DIS 'Iq} in the example above, precede the {'e'} of the sao ?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">~ nI'ghma<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
tlhIngan-Hol mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org">tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.<wbr>cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>