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<p class="MsoNormal">Voragh:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>> However, the {<b>'e' -lu'</b>} pattern can indeed be used with verbs </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">>> other than {<b>‘aq</b>}.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">nI'ghma :<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Wingdings"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">Ø<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">This is new to me. I can't understand why on these examples the {'e' -lu'}<br>
pattern is used, but I do remember that on numerous occasions on this<br>
list, we have said (or I have been told) that it is not permissible.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Well I don’t think it’s exactly “not permissible”, just not recommended. Using {net} is simpler and easier to understand.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Wingdings"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">Ø<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Do the examples that you posted, mean that we can freely use {'e' -lu'} ?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><br>
I wouldn’t go crazy over-using it. It’s hardly ever used by Okrand, but it does exist.<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Wingdings"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">Ø<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">As far as the {-lu' net} is concerned, I see no problem with it since it doesn't contradict any rule.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I just wanted to give all the known variations since there are so few of them.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">--<br>
Voragh<br>
<i>Ca'Non Master of the Klingons</i><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="border:none;padding:0in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Nov 30, 2017 10:00 PM, "Steven Boozer" <<a href="mailto:sboozer@uchicago.edu">sboozer@uchicago.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> mayqel qunenoS<br>
>> </span>{'e' -lu'} is not a permissible construction, unless the {-lu'} is on the verb {'aq}.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <b> SIS 'e' 'aqlu', javmaH vatlhvI' DIch</b>
<br>
It is predicted it will rain, 60% certainty. (qep'a' 2017)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> However, the {<b>'e' -lu'</b>} pattern can indeed be used with verbs other than {<b>‘aq</b>}. E.g.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b> Qang QanmeH yan 'ISletlh Damuv 'e' wIvlu'.
<br>
</b>You are chosen to serve on the <i>Yan-Isleth</i> and protect the chancellor. MKE<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> We’ve also seen the pattern {<b>-lu' 'e' -lu'</b>} used:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <b> yay chavlu' 'e' bajnISlu'</b>
<br>
<b> </b>Victory must be earned. TKW<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b> yInlu'taH 'e' bajnISlu'</b>
<br>
<b> </b>Survival must be earned. TKW<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b> DIvI' rojmab qep ghanglu' 'e' nIDlu', 'ach taH qep.
<br>
</b>Despite efforts to halt them, peace talks with Federation continue. MKE<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">And we’ve even seen the pattern {<b>-lu' net</b>}:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <b> vImuHlu' net wuqHa'!<br>
</b> My death sentence was commuted! (ENT "Affliction")<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">--<br>
Voragh</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> mayqel qunenoS</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">{<b>'e' -lu'</b>} is not a permissible construction, unless the {-<b>lu'</b>} is on the verb {<b>'aq</b>}.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Always, as soon as you find yourself wanting to say {yadda yadda
<b>'e'</b> *whatever*<b>lu'</b>} you should instead write {yadda yadda <b>net</b> whatever}<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">~ nI'ghma<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On Nov 30, 2017 9:12 PM, "Aurélie Demonchaux" <<a href="mailto:demonchaux.aurelie@gmail.com" target="_blank">demonchaux.aurelie@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Today I am trying to grasp the difference between {net + verb} and {'e' + verb-lu'}</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">The way I understand it is, for example with "Sov"</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">net Sov = it is common knowledge that </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">'e' Sovlu' = someone (indefinite) knows that</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Thus:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">qama'pu' DIHoHbe' net Sov = It is common knowledge that we don't kill prisoners</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">qama'pu' DIHoHbe' 'e' Sovlu' = It is known / someone knows that we don't kill prisoners</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Similarly with chaw' : </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">qama'pu' DIHoH net chaw'be' = we are not allowed to kill prisoners</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">qama'pu' DIHoH 'e' chaw'lu'be' = someone does not allow us to kill prisoners</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Am I getting it right ?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Thanks in advance!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">Aurélie</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">ghItlhjaj</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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