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<p>TL;DR: <b>-vaD</b> is the dative of Klingon.<br>
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On 10/5/2017 12:45 PM, nIqolay Q wrote:<br>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 9:35 AM,
SuStel <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">sustel@trimboli.name</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
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<p>And I wholeheartedly endorse the idea of asking him
for further clarification of <b>-vaD</b> and the
prefix trick; I'm not saying there's nothing to learn
here. I don't <i>know</i> that you can't say <b>muqab</b>
instead of <b>jIHvaD qab;</b><br>
</p>
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<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">Are you arguing just against the use
of the prefix trick with stative verbs and the idea that <b>-vaD</b>
counts as an indirect object with such verbs? Or do you
disagree that any of my three examples have indirect
objects that can be used with the prefix trick, including
the idea of "I do something for you" and that thing you do
when using <b>-moH</b> on transitive verbs?</div>
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<p><b>bangwI', SoHvaD wa'SaD SuvwI' vIHoHqang<br>
</b></p>
<p><b>SoHvaD</b> is not an indirect object; it is a benefactive. Now
I wish I hadn't suggested the "happen to" test to you, because
you're totally misapplying and misunderstanding it. The sentence
is not about your beloved receiving a presentation involving
killing; it is only about your willingness to kill, and your
beloved is the one who will benefit from it. You didn't give
anything to your beloved; your beloved isn't described as
receiving speech or an image or a thing. That she is addressed in
the sentence is irrelevant; it has nothing to do with indirect
objects or benefactives.<br>
</p>
<p><b style="transition: transform 1s ease 0s;">jIHvaD DuSaQwIj Deq
qawmoH qachvetlh</b></p>
<p><span style="transition: transform 1s ease 0s;">I have no idea
whether <b>-vaD</b> + <b>-moH</b> has anything to do with
indirect objects or benefactives or not. It seems to be playing
the role of "I don't know where else to put this noun, so I'll
stick a <b>-vaD</b> on it." Okrand has never explained the
workings of this grammar, and it's controversial and confusing
because it's difficult to make sense of it.</span></p>
<p><b>jIHvaD qab tera'ngan Soj 'Iq</b> - "I admit that using the
prefix trick with a stative verb might be too much of a stretch."</p>
<p>Why? If there's no difference between types of <b>-vaD,</b> what
could possibly be wrong with it? <i>What distinction between that
and known good examples are you making?</i><br>
<span style="transition: transform 1s ease 0s;"></span><b
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<p>Well, English treats targets of speeches or visions
as if they had been handed a package. Whether Klingon
does the same is a fair question, which this example
might be confirmation of.</p>
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<div>The article on the prefix trick already describes the
target of speeches as an indirect object (which, in your
terminology, is analogous to being handed a package): <br>
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<div><i>The indirect object of jatlh, when expressed, is
the hearer/listener. Thus:<br>
[...]<br>
qama'pu'vaD SoQ Dajatlh "you make a speech to the
prisoners" (qama'pu'vaD "for the prisoners," SoQ
"speech, lecture, address," Dajatlh "you speak it")</i></div>
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<div> </div>
<div><a
href="http://klingonska.org/canon/1997-06-29b-news.txt"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://klingonska.org/canon/1997-06-29b-news.txt</a></div>
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<p>Exactly, and it does not describe the target as a beneficiary or
a benefactive or a dative noun or anything else—it describes it as
an indirect object. I believe that when Okrand says "indirect
object" here, he actually means indirect object, not "thing
related to indirect objects."<br>
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<p>I think you're getting confused by the English
translations. It doesn't matter whether something is
translated with <i>to</i> or <i>for;</i> it's the
concept that counts. Is there an inherent difference
in concept between the <b>-vaD</b> in <b>Qu'vaD lI'
De'vam</b> and <b>yaSvaD taj nobpu' qama'</b>? I
think there is, and the concept exists in linguistic
studies, and Okrand went out of his way to introduce
the difference in the addendum. </p>
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<div>They are different concepts (the nature of the benefit
is more abstract and potential in the case of <b>Qu'vaD
lI' De'vam</b>, for instance), but I don't think the
concepts are so different that they can't be included
under the same usage of <b>-vaD</b>.</div>
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<p>They ARE both included in <b>-vaD.</b> I've been saying all
along that the concepts are different but related. Are you
listening? That's why they both use the same suffix.
Syntactically, they are indistinguishable: noun + <b>-vaD,</b>
end of story. Semantically, they are different, but related.<br>
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<div> The mission benefits (or will benefit) in some way
from the usefulness of this information, and the officer
benefits in some way from the prisoner giving a knife.</div>
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<p>Yes. And this is the sense in which "the indirect object may be
considered the beneficiary." The officer benefits IN SOME WAY. As
a benefactive, that way is not specified. As an indirect object,
it is: the officer is given the knife. Indirect objects are a
sub-class of the beneficiary meaning of <b>-vaD.</b><br>
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<div> Context, like the use of the verb <b>nob</b>,
suggests that in the latter case the likely benefit is
that the officer physically receives a knife.<br>
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<p>Context lets you distinguish between the benefactive
interpretation and the indirect object interpretation.<br>
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<div>When Okrand said "the indirect object can be considered
the beneficiary", I don't think his phrasing was intended
to highlight a linguistic distinction. Rather, I think he
was trying to explain the idea to an audience with a
casual knowledge of grammar by highlighting an alternate
way to think about the term "indirect object".</div>
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<p>This wasn't a "let's think about this in a different way" part of
the dictionary. The Addendum is all about new stuff that got added
or clarified since the first edition. Added: <b>-vaD</b> can not
only do sentences like <b>Qu'vaD lI' De'vam,</b> but it can also
do related, but still different, sentences like <b>yaSvaD taj
nobpu' qama'.</b> We already know where <b>-vaD</b> nouns go,
but section 6.8 tells us that <i>indirect objects</i> go before
the direct object and get <b>-vaD</b> put on them. We are
specifically being told where to put indirect objects, even though
we already know where to put beneficiaries.</p>
<p>Prior to the second edition, not counting the on-screen Klingon
that led to it, there had never been a canonical sentence with an
actual indirect object. It got added.<br>
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<div> In other words, I think it was more like "So, you've
heard of indirect objects, but are wondering how to
express that idea in Klingon? If you think about it,
indirect objects are benefiting from the verb. So you can
use the suffix I described earlier for marking a
beneficiary to express the same basic idea."</div>
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<p>Yes, it is exactly this, but he's not saying "And you could have
figured that out too if you'd thought about it"; he's saying "And
this is a new bit of information that wasn't in the first edition
of the dictionary and didn't necessarily follow from it." It's
there because the first edition described only benefactives, and
he wanted to add indirect objects.<br>
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<div> It's like if he talked about using <b>tlhej</b> for
"with" by saying "the object of 'with' can be considered
the accompanier".</div>
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You keep talking about <b>tlhej,</b> but the addition of indirect
objects is not a case where all you had to do was think about a good
way to say what you wanted to say. It was new information. The first
edition did not describe indirect objects. It described
benefactives, calling them beneficiaries, and the second edition
said that the roles of benefactives and indirect objects are related
and use the same suffix because of that relation.<br>
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<p><b>yaSvaD taj nobpu' qama'</b> can theoretically mean
either (a) the prisoner handed the officer a knife, or
(b) the prisoner handed <i>someone else</i> a knife
for the officer's sake. These are different concepts.
This is the difference I am pointing to. You're most
likely to interpret it as (a) an indirect object, but
given the right context you could interpret it as (b)
a benefactive.<span class="gmail-HOEnZb"></span></p>
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<div>That's true that it's potentially ambiguous, but again,
I don't think there's a reason to necessarily assume that
those different usages interact with grammar rules in a
different way. (Specifically, the grammar rules describing
when one can perform the prefix trick.) <br>
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<p>The reason to think that is that Okrand describes the prefix
trick for "indirect objects," not for beneficiaries, not for
benefactives, not for any noun with <b>-vaD.</b> "Indirect
objects." I see no reason to think he uses the term "indirect
object" to refer to any kind of <b>-vaD</b> noun.</p>
<p>That's not to say that it's impossible for the prefix trick to
work with benefactives. It's to say that Okrand didn't say it did.<br>
</p>
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<div>For instance, TKD says that <b>-Daq</b> can often be
translated using "to, in, at, on". These are
linguistically different concepts, and there are languages
like Finnish that distinguish between those various
meanings, with various locative cases like the adessive
("on") and inessive ("in") and illative ("into") and all
the rest.</div>
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<p>And Klingon does NOT distinguish between those meanings. There is
no grammatical test you can perform in Klingon to distinguish the
<i>to, in, at,</i> or <i>on</i> meanings from a <b>-Daq.</b> But
Okrand DOES distinguish between indirect objects and benefactives
("beneficiaries") in his presentation in TKD, and IF it turns out
you can't use the prefix trick with certain sentences, that's a
good test to show that there ARE ways to distinguish the various
sorts of <b>-vaD.</b><br>
</p>
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<div> And Klingon does use the pronomial prefixes to
distinguish between "motion to an area" and "doing
something at an area".</div>
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<p>No, it doesn't. It distinguishes those by the nature of the verb.
The object of <b>ghoS</b> is a location. This is built into the
verb. Using a <b>-Daq</b> with <b>ghoS</b> gives a meaning
depending entirely on whether the noun is the direct object or
not. The <b>-Daq</b> is completely optional on such an object. <b>qachDaq
ghoS</b>. If <b>qachDaq</b> is the direct object, the
destination is the <b>qach</b>. If <b>qachDaq</b> is not the
direct object, the entire action of <b>ghoS</b> takes place at
the location <b>qach.</b> The "to-ness" or "at-ness" has nothing
to do with whether there is a <b>-Daq</b> on the <b>qach</b> or
not. Verb prefixes sometimes help us to distinguish whether a noun
is an object or not, but this is not essential, and the meaning
does not come from the prefix.<br>
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<div> Okrand doesn't often talk about or use the prefix
trick, which is the one known element of Klingon grammar
where the distinction might matter. And I think his use of
the term "indirect object" mostly just represents a change
in how he describes the <b>-vaD</b> suffix, rather than
making a distinction from the original description as a
beneficiary marker.</div>
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<p>But why? Why would he add to the Addendum a whole section unto
itself called "Indirect Objects" if these were just a new name for
the familiar <b>-vaD</b>? There are sooo many areas that are left
vague in TKD, and this is the only one he thought he'd just give a
couple of examples, to be helpful? Every single other section of
the Addendum adds something new, something previously unknown or
not explained correctly. In this one section he's going to
elaborate on something he'd already explained, but maybe you
didn't notice all the possibilities because he didn't use a
particular phrase? Really?</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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