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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">I’m not quite sure I understand what Lieven’s FaceBook critic meant by “some kind of tool”, but here are a few purpose clauses that probably don’t – depending on how you analyze them - involve “purpose
nouns”:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">Dochvetlh DIlmeH Huch 'ar DaneH</span></b><span style="font-family:Courier">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">How much do you want for that? TKD<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">cha'puj vIngevmeH chaw' HInobneS
<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">Give me a permit to sell dilithium, your honor. PK<br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">Heghlu'meH QaQ jajvam</span></b><span style="font-family:Courier">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">It is a good day to die. TKW<br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">bIQapqu'meH tar DaSop 'e' DatIvnIS</span></b><span style="font-family:Courier">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">To really succeed, you must enjoy eating poison. TKW<br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">HIvmeH Duj So'lu'</span></b><span style="font-family:Courier">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">A ship cloaks in order to attack. TKW<br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">noH QapmeH wo' Qaw'lu'chugh yay chavbe'lu' 'ej wo' choqmeH<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier"> may' DoHlu'chugh lujbe'lu'</span></b><span style="font-family:Courier">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">Destroying an empire to win a war is no victory, and ending<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier"> a battle to save an empire is no defeat. TKW<br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">vISeHmeH Hoch nuHmey Qay!
<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">[Transfer] All weapons to my control. (Clipped?) (ST5 NOTES)<br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">motlh ray' luSamlaHmeH De' Qatlh cha' tlhIngan Duj jIH'a'
<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">The main viewer on a Klingon ship is usually overlaid with<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier"> a complex target acquisition grid. SP3<br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">luchovmeH 'oy'naQmey lo'
<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">[Warriors] who test him with
<i>painstiks</i>. S9<br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">labmeH 'evnagh Se' lo' tlhIngan QumwI'
<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">A Klingon communicator sends a signal through subspace radio.
<span style="text-transform:uppercase">S19<br>
<br>
</span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">ngoQvam luchavmeH ghawran maghpu' be'nI'pu'</span></b><span style="font-family:Courier">.<b> woQ luSuqmeH<o:p></o:p></b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier"> jIjpu' chaH romuluSngan'e' je</span></b><span style="font-family:Courier">.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">To this end, the sisters have acted against Gowron, going as<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier"> far as to work with Romulan factions in order to gain power. S26<br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">tlhutlhmeH HIq ngeb qaq law' bIQ qaq puS</span></b><span style="font-family:Courier">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">Drinking fake ale is better than drinking water. TKW<br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">jonlu'meH wo'maj pop tIn law' Hoch tIn puS</span></b><span style="font-family:Courier">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">Our Empire's highest bounty has been placed on his head. (ST5 notes)<br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">There are others I could post.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D">--Voragh<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext"> tlhIngan-Hol [mailto:tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>SuStel<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 8/30/2017 11:24 AM, Lieven wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">Which nouns make sense in a {[verb]meH [noun]} phrase? <br>
<br>
In a discussion in Facebook, someone asked to translate "Tell me why you did that" and I suggested {DamaghmeH meqlIj yIDel} "describe your reason for betraying him".
<br>
<br>
Somebody corrected me that the noun in such a phrase should be some kind of tool, as in {pe'meH taj} and {ja'chuqmeH rojHom}.
<br>
<br>
Is there any evidence for or against any of this? <br>
<br>
I feel that {maghmeH meq} sounds reasonable (no pun intended) but others don't. <o:p>
</o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p>Most of our examples seem to follow the pattern that purpose clauses attached to nouns are theoretically infinitive—they don't have subjects or prefixes—while purpose clauses attached to verbs are finite.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>So, <b>ja'chuqmeH rojHom</b><i> truce to confer,</i> but <b>maja'chuqmeH maghom</b><i> we meet to confer.</i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I believe there are counterexamples, so take that with a grain of salt, but I think that's the basic idea.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>As for <b>maghmeH meq,</b> I don't like it because your motive doesn't have the purpose of betraying; your motive leads to betraying. In
<b>ja'chuqmeH rojHom</b> the purpose of the truce is conferring. In <b>pe'meH taj,</b> the purpose of the knife is cutting.
<b>-meH</b> on a noun describes the mission of that noun. The mission of your motive is not to betray; the
<i>cause</i> of your betrayal is your motive.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>I wouldn't translate <i>tell me why you did that!</i> so literally. I'd just say
<b>qatlh Data'pu'? </b><i>why did you do it?</i> If the original action done were specified
<i>(tell me why you betrayed him!),</i> I'd use a better verb: <b>qatlh Damaghpu'?</b><i> why did you betray him?</i> If I absolutely had to include the
<i>tell me!</i> part, I'd just add a <b>HIja'!</b> at the end of it or, if I don't want it to be confused with
<i>yes,</i> I'd say <b>jIHvaD yIja'!</b> And if it truly, unfairly had to be a single sentence about telling, I'd say
<b>jIHvaD maghpu'ghach meq yIja'</b><i> tell me your betrayal motive!</i> And if you insisted that, nononono, not just betrayal but betraying
<i>him,</i> I'd say go away, I'm done.<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>SuStel<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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