<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/21/2017 12:45 PM, Rhona Fenwick
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:SYXPR01MB182232C1C69E1B6543DABDE6AA3D0@SYXPR01MB1822.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com"
type="cite">
<p style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif,
'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', NotoColorEmoji, 'Segoe UI
Symbol', 'Android Emoji', EmojiSymbols; font-size: 16px;">
ghItlhpu' SuStel, jatlh:</p>
<p style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif,
'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', NotoColorEmoji, 'Segoe UI
Symbol', 'Android Emoji', EmojiSymbols; font-size: 16px;">
> A kiss is not a bite. People saying <b>chop</b> as an
equivalent to <i>kiss</i> drive me crazy.</p>
<p style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif,
'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', NotoColorEmoji, 'Segoe UI
Symbol', 'Android Emoji', EmojiSymbols; font-size: 16px;">
<br>
</p>
<p style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif,
'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', NotoColorEmoji, 'Segoe UI
Symbol', 'Android Emoji', EmojiSymbols; font-size: 16px;">
Though it's of course not a one-to-one equivalent, Marc was the
one who first used it.</p>
<p style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif,
'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', NotoColorEmoji, 'Segoe UI
Symbol', 'Android Emoji', EmojiSymbols; font-size: 16px;">
<br>
</p>
<p style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif,
'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', NotoColorEmoji, 'Segoe UI
Symbol', 'Android Emoji', EmojiSymbols; font-size: 16px;">
<b>HIchop, bang.</b></p>
<p style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif,
'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', NotoColorEmoji, 'Segoe UI
Symbol', 'Android Emoji', EmojiSymbols; font-size: 16px;">
"Give us a kiss, love." (<i>Radio Times</i>)</p>
<p style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif,
'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', NotoColorEmoji, 'Segoe UI
Symbol', 'Android Emoji', EmojiSymbols; font-size: 16px;">
<br>
</p>
<p style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif,
'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', NotoColorEmoji, 'Segoe UI
Symbol', 'Android Emoji', EmojiSymbols; font-size: 16px;">
Clearly it's a rendition of the cultural meaning rather than the
physical action, but it does show that Klingons probably don't
kiss as a sign of romantic affection.</p>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>It doesn't show that at all. I acknowledge that Okrand used <b>chop</b>
in place of <i>kiss,</i> but he provided no context. Are we meant
to take this as a completely literal translation, and <b>chop</b>
means <i>kiss</i> as well as <i>bite</i>? Are we supposed to
understand that Klingons don't kiss for affection, but they do
bite? Are we supposed to take this as a tongue-in-cheek
translation? Are we supposed to conclude that Klingons bite
instead of kiss someone beloved, but others might be kissed
instead of bitten? To whom is this said? We don't know.<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:SYXPR01MB182232C1C69E1B6543DABDE6AA3D0@SYXPR01MB1822.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com"
type="cite">
<p style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif,
'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', NotoColorEmoji, 'Segoe UI
Symbol', 'Android Emoji', EmojiSymbols; font-size: 16px;">
</p>
<div>taH:</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div>
<p>> I don't like hearing fan over-generalizations of what
they've seen on screen to</p>
<p>> every aspect of a Klingon's life.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Please don't assume my motivations.</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>I didn't say <i>you</i> were over-generalizing. I was explaining
the background of my dislike of using <b>chop</b> for a romantic
or sexual kiss, and that background includes hearing people
interpolating the tiny amount of culture information we get
on-screen into an entire culture.</p>
<p>That said, I think you<i> are</i> over-generalizing. You've got a
concept of what Klingons would or would not do, and you're using
that concept to justify the lack of a word. You might be right or
you might not, but either way you're taking the very scanty
cultural information we've got and generalizing it to an entire
culture.</p>
<p>This is actually a problem with most alien races in <i>Star
Trek:</i> they tend to be painted, even by the writers, with
very broad strokes. All Klingons are warriors (until they're not).
All Ferengi are after profit above all else (until they're not).
All Vulcans are intellectual (until they're not). This is the
classic Planet of Hats problem. On the Planet of Hats, there's no
room for a Klingon tenderly looking at his baby (until a writer
wants to make a point, which just proves the rule).<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:SYXPR01MB182232C1C69E1B6543DABDE6AA3D0@SYXPR01MB1822.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com"
type="cite">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div>taH:
<p>> There was a great cover of <i>HolQeD,</i> my favorite
cover, showing a Klingon man</p>
<p>> holding a Klingon baby very close and looking down at
it tenderly. Go ahead and</p>
<p>> tell me that no Klingon would ever do that, or that no
Klingon doing that would</p>
<p>> ever press their lips to the baby.</p>
<p>> Or is everyone thoughtlessly equating kissing with a
sexual or romantic act?<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Firstly, yes, a Klingon
might well press their lips to a baby - but I don't think
a Klingon would press their lips to a baby
</span><span style="font-size: 12pt;"></span><b
style="font-size: 12pt;">in a regular and culturally
constituted way that would justify developing a specific
and dedicated verb for pressing their lips to something</b><span
style="font-size: 12pt;">.</span><span style="font-size:
12pt;"> That's the distinction</span><span
style="font-size: 12pt;">.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>But what on-screen scene led you to that conclusion? What piece
of Okrandian canon tells you this? Nothing at all: you're
generalizing from the Klingon Hat.<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:SYXPR01MB182232C1C69E1B6543DABDE6AA3D0@SYXPR01MB1822.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com"
type="cite">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> The closest I'd get to
agreeing with you here is that a Klingon would
certainly nuzzle some part of their head to the baby's.
And i</span><span style="font-size: 12pt;">f anything, in
this context I think a Klingon would probably press their
*forehead* to the baby. We do know from canon that the
forehead is a potent symbol of heritage and of family for
Klingons (KGT 28-29, and the curse
</span><b style="font-size: 12pt;">Hab SoSlI' Quch</b><span
style="font-size: 12pt;"> "your mother has a smooth
forehead" from PK</span><span style="font-size: 12pt;">),
and that festive occasions are times that bring warriors
to butt foreheads to show camaraderie (KGT 157-158).</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>And those things have absolutely zilch to do with fathers showing
affection to their children. You might as well claim that Klingons
rub ice cream cones on their foreheads to demonstrate how
delicious they are.<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:SYXPR01MB182232C1C69E1B6543DABDE6AA3D0@SYXPR01MB1822.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com"
type="cite">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> And h</span><span
style="font-size: 12pt;">ave you ever seen the </span><span
style="font-size: 12pt;">Inuit
<i>kunik</i></span><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> or M</span><span
style="font-size: 12pt;">āori
<i>hongi</i>, methods of greeting and showing affection
that are performed by pressing noses together rather than
lips? The assumption that the lips are a unique and
universal site of expressing even
non-sexual physical affection is not just a human-centric,
but an ethnocentric one and one that, in the absence of
any evidence, I don't believe we can fairly make about
Klingons either</span><span style="font-size: 12pt;">.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>No, we can't! This is absolutely correct. So... how can you make
the claim that Klingons DON'T kiss their children OR that they rub
foreheads? You have no data.<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:SYXPR01MB182232C1C69E1B6543DABDE6AA3D0@SYXPR01MB1822.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com"
type="cite">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div>
<p><span style="font-size: 12pt;"></span></p>
<span style="font-size: 12pt;"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">But
the <i>Radio Times</i> translation indicates that even if
they do, they probably don't care for doing it in
<b>parmaq</b>.</span></span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Unless Okrand clarifies, one can be a <b>bang</b> without being
a <b>parmaqqay.</b> <b>bang</b> is not necessarily romantic; <b>parmaqqay</b>
is. And again, we don't know the context of the Radio Times quote.
<i>Give us a kiss, love</i> is something that an English person
might say to a lover or a child or even a complete stranger. It
does not automatically mean romance. We have no context.<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
</body>
</html>