<div dir="ltr"><br><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 9:46 AM, SuStel <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" target="_blank">sustel@trimboli.name</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<div class="gmail-m_-6939127681469690188moz-cite-prefix">On 2/22/2017 1:39 AM, Ed Bailey wrote:<br>
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<div>Qu'wIjmo' jIyevnISpu'</div>
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<p>I'm not going to call this use of <b>-pu'</b> categorically
wrong, but I suspect you're thinking of past tense instead of
aspect here. Are you conceiving of a need to pause that came to an
end, or are you just talking about a need to pause? Not that the
pause eventually came to an end, which it obviously did since
you're writing now, but that it came to an end in the circumstance
you're describing with the word <b>yIyavnISpu'.</b></p></div></blockquote><div>I need to keep increasing my use of time stamps. <b>wa'Hu' Qu'wIjmo' jImevnIS</b> is more to the point. <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><p><br>
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<div> 'ej Do'Ha' qaSpu' jaj bID je jItaHqa'laHpa'.</div>
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</span><p>Stylistic note: <b>jItaHqa'laHpa'</b><i> before I can resume
enduring</i> seems circuitous. Enduring what? Answering <b>(</b><b>jIjangqa'laHpa')</b>?
Writing (composing) <b>(jIqonqa'laHpa')</b>?</p></div></blockquote><div><b>taH</b> <continue, go, endure, survive> It only means continue in the general sense, as in <b>taH pagh taHbe'</b>? And I don't imply any object if I use a null-object prefix. Though you have a good point that <b>jIjangqa'laHpa'</b> is precise as to what activity I'm resuming, and as the saying goes, a Klingon may be inaccurate, but he is never imprecise.<br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
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<div> nI' QInmeymaj</div>
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<p>reH jISIv: nI' QIn pagh tIq QIn. mu'tlhegh lugh vISovbe'.<br>
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<div> vaj loQ vImISchoH.</div>
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<p><b>jImISchoH</b></p></div></blockquote><div>moHaq luboplu'DI' jIyepnISqu'. pIj jIghItlhHa' ghIq mu'meywIj vIlaDHa'.<br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><p><br>
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<div> jItaghqa'meH Daq vItu'.<br>
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</span><p>ghItlhmeH Daq DaSamnISpu'?<br></p></div></blockquote><div>ghobe'. QInDaq jItaghqa'meH Daq vI'tu'pu'. <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><p>
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<div dir="ltr">jIjatlh:<br>
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<div style="margin-left:40px">jagh QaHbe'nISlu' 'a
vuDDaj meq qaq buSHa'law' SuStel.</div>
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jatlh SuStel:<br>
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<p>nuqjatlh? <i>SuStel seems to ignore his preferable
opinion.</i></p>
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<p>I should have said something like <span class="gmail-m_-6939127681469690188gmail-im">vuDDaj
vuybogh meq qaq'e' buSHa'law' SuStel.</span></p>
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</span><p><b>vuy?</b> mu'vetlh vISovbe'.<br></p></div></blockquote><div>mu' chu' 'oH: <a href="http://www.kli.org/about-klingon/new-klingon-words/v/">http://www.kli.org/about-klingon/new-klingon-words/v/</a><br>'a vIlo'Ha'pu'. vIghItlhtaHvIS, jIjatlhnIS <vuDDajvaD vuybogh meq qaq'e' buSHa'law' SuStel> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><p>
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<p><span class="gmail-m_-6939127681469690188gmail-im">And of course the preferable reason: </span>wot
tlhejbogh <-lu'> <-wI'> je ngaSbogh mu'tlhegh
naDpu''a' marq 'oqranD?</p>
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</span><p>wa' naDpu'be' 'ej ghItlhpu'be'.<br>
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<p>In my opinion, the lack of canon -lu' plus -wI' is a stronger
argument than your inference from the rules of TKD. MO can
always refine the rules outlined in his "grammatical sketch,"
and he could easily say the wording in TKD 3.2.2 fails to take
into account one special case, but if he were to start
allowing -lu' plus -wI' at this point, some explanation for
its apparent rarity is called for.<br>
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</span><p>If Okrand starts doing something, that takes priorty, obviously.</p>
<p>But a lack of evidence cannot reasonably be considered a stronger
argument than drawing inferences from the rules. Okrand never says
that Klingons don't add<b> wala wala bIng beng</b> to the end of
encyclopedia entries written in Klingon; that doesn't mean we
should advocate that in our own Klingon encyclopedia.</p></div></blockquote><div>Haven't you got the Chipmunks reference reversed? I pointed out that the absence of <b>-lu'wI'</b> in canon argues against its use, rather than for it. <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>Your argument doesn't stem from lack of evidence anyway. It comes
from analyzing the rules in TKD <i>as they are demonstrated in
English translations</i>. You're taking the rule that <b>-wI'</b>
turns the verb into its subject, thinking that the subject of <b>leghlu'</b>
<i>it is seen</i> is <i>it,</i> and concluding that the <i>it,</i>
<i>that which is seen</i>, is the result. But while the <i>it</i>
is the subject in English, it is not in Klingon. The Klingon has
no subject, and therefore nothing to turn into when a <b>-wI'</b>
is added.<br></p></div></blockquote><div>No, my argument that <b>-lu'wI'</b> might function as -ee in employee stems from the fact that if there's a <b>-lu'</b> on the verb, <b>-wI'</b> can't nominalize it as the subject, since there isn't any, so the next candidate is the object. Every example in TKD 3.2.2 uses <b>-wI'</b> on a bare stem, so of course it uses the translation <one who does> or <thing which does>, which implies subject. But is it phrased this way because <b>-wI'</b> can only nominalize as the subject (I hear your emphatic "YES!"), or simply because, at the time, Okrand hadn't considered the possibility of adding <b>-wI'</b> to a verb plus <b>-lu'</b>? Granted, he's had three decades to go into more detail on this, but you probably wouldn't disagree that he is loathe to paint himself into a corner.<br><br></div><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">An additional point is that special prefixes are used for a verb plus <b>-lu'</b>. There's clearly something unusual going on when special grammatical rules come into play, which makes one expect more to follow. When I considered the possibility of <b>-lu'wI'</b>, it was like hearing the other shoe dropping.<span class="gmail-"><br><br>
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<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" style="margin-left:40px">In English passive
voice, this is true. <b>-lu'</b> is not
English passive voice. In Klingon, when <b>-lu'</b>
is added, the object remains the object.<br>
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</div><div style="margin-left:40px">This is the language used to decribe what
goes on in Klingon. My point is the
construction i <br>
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<br>
</div></div></div></div></blockquote></span><p style="margin-left:40px">Your sentence seems to have been cut off.</p><div style="margin-left:40px">
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</div><div style="margin-left:40px">Oops! I think I was saying the language used in TKD
attempts to describe Klingon grammar in terms familiar to
the reader, but that Klingons do not necessarily conceive
of their grammar in those terms. Therefore there is a
danger of accepting TKD's explanations too literally, and
based on that, forcing an interpretation of Klingon
grammar that Klingons would rightly consider alien.</div><div style="margin-left:40px">
<br>
</div></div></div></div></blockquote></span><p style="margin-left:40px">I partly agree. TKD certainly is not written in careful
linguistic terms. It uses many linguistic terms, but these are not
usually defined for the reader; you have to already know what
subjects and objects and nouns and verbs are, for instance. Taking
TKD too literally is indeed fraught with peril.</p><div style="margin-left:40px">
</div><p style="margin-left:40px">However, that is not to say that a Klingon grammarian's analysis
of Klingon is the only possible analysis. First remember the
fictional background of the book. It is written by a Federation
government committee, or a scientific council created by the
Federation. English-speaking linguists have prepared it for an
English-speaking audience. They describe separate parts of the
language that Klingon linguists lump together.</p><div style="margin-left:40px">
</div><p style="margin-left:40px">The fiction of TKD is therefore that it is <i>describing</i> the
rules of Klingon as it appears naturally, rather than <i>prescribing</i>
rules to be followed. The rules that TKD describe actually exist
and function in Klingon, whether or not Klingon linguists
acknowledge or categorize them. There really is a distinction
between question words and exclamations, even though Klingon
linguists just call them <b>chuvmey.</b></p><div style="margin-left:40px">
</div><p style="margin-left:40px">The language used to describe <b>-lu'</b> and <b>-wI'</b>
describe incompatible functions. <b>-lu'</b> tells us there is no
subject. <b>-wI'</b> tells us the verb becomes its subject. These
cannot be reconciled by any rules described in TKD. If Okrand were
to come and tell us that, in fact, here's what combining those two
suffixes means, then that'd be a new rule he'd discovered in
talking with Maltz and we could apply it. Languages sometimes have
rules that seem nonsensical. But we cannot infer your preferred
rule from anything we have been given about the rules of Klingon.
You have inferred the rule based on the English translations of
Klingon sentences.<br></p></div><div>On what do you base your assertion that my inferences are based on English translations? Was it something I said?<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><p>
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<div> So'bogh DoS DIp chu' jal rom
chut je,</div>
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<p><i>The rule of accord envisions a new,
hidden target noun</i>?<br>
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<div>My language here is awkward. An example
is called for. When {mulegh ghaH} is changed
to {vIleghlu'}. The rule of accord requires
the prefix {vI-}, so although semantically
there is a null agent and first-person
singular patient, grammatically the rule of
accord treats this situation as if there
were a first-person singular subject and
third-person singular object, although that
object is merely a grammatical fiction. This
is clearly a special situation, and I have
to wonder whether OVS accurately reflects
how Klingon linguists would interpret it.<br>
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<p><b>mulegh ghaH</b> is not changed to <b>vIleghlu'.</b>
You construct <b>vIleghlu'</b> directly. There is no
transformation from one to another. When I am thinking
in Klingon and I intend to use an indefinite subject,
my mind goes straight to <b>vI-</b> being the proper
prefix.<br>
</p>
<p>The <b>vI-</b> prefix does not, according to the
description in TKD, treat <b>vIleghlu'</b> as if it
had a first-person singular subject and a third-person
singular object. TKD explicitly says the prefixes are
used to mean something else. With <b>-lu',</b> <b>vI-</b>
MEANS first-person object. There's no grammatical
fiction going on; the prefixes are simply reassigned
for <b>-lu'.</b></p>
<p>Now, is it possible that there is some "grammatical
fiction" reason WHY the prefixes are reassigned?
Maybe, but that's pure conjecture and there's no
evidence for it anywhere.</p>
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<div>I wasn't implying that vIleghlu' was a form of mulegh
ghaH, but rather considering the effect on the prefix if
the speaker rephrased the sentence to eliminate the
explicit agent. It's impossible (for me, anyway) not to
wonder how verbs with -lu' came to have the prefixes they
do. I expect that, as with any language, that it's just
natural and unquestioned for most native speakers but that
it entered speech for a very definite reason that speakers
didn't take for granted at the time. What that reason
could be I won't even try to guess.<br>
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</span><p>You have now more than once invoked the language of semantics
with <i>agent</i>. When comparing English passive and active
sentences, the shift of agent from object to subject is
significant. Let's look at the case for Klingon <b>-lu'.</b></p>
<p>I'm going to use a more active verb than <b>legh;</b> there is
an argument to be made that there is no agent in seeing. Let's use
<b>qIp</b> <i>hit.</i></p>
<p><b>jagh vIqIp jIH</b><i> I hit the enemy<br>
</i>Here, <b>jIH</b> is the subject and the agent. <b>jagh</b>
is the object and the patient.</p>
<p><b>jagh qIplu' </b><i>someone/something hits the enemy; the
enemy is hit<br>
</i>Here, there is no subject or agent. <b>jagh</b> is the object
and the patient.</p>
<p>There has been no shifting around of either syntactic or semantic
roles.</p>
<p>Here's another:<br>
</p>
<b>jIH muqIp ghaH<i> </i></b><i>he hits me</i><br>
<p><b>ghaH</b> is the subject and the agent; <b>jIH</b> is the
object and the patient</p>
<p><b>jIH vIqIplu'</b><i> someone/something hits me; I am hit<br>
</i>There is no subject or agent; <b>jIH</b> is the object and
the patient.</p>
<p>See? No shift at all in either syntax or semantics. We're simply
eliminating the subject from consideration. The fact that prefixes
are reassigned is completely irrelevant. It's just a thing to
memorize; it doesn't affect the grammar in any other way.<br></p></div></blockquote><div> Yes, but thanks to Klingon's rigid word order, for the nouns, the syntax corresponds perfectly to the semantics, so the syntactic analysis is redundant. (The only syntax change is the prefix reassignment, and it's a thing to memorize, but it's also an interesting mystery, and we'll probably never hear an in-universe explanation of how it got that way.) In English, we inflect pronouns to mark their syntactical role. In Klingon, nouns, pronouns, and
adjectives undergo a change to mark their syntactic role only when they
are neither subject nor object.<span class="gmail-"> </span> <br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><p>
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<div> 'a potlhbe', mu'tlheghDaq
DI'rujDaq ghap DoS DIpqoqvam chu'
tu'be'lu'mo'. wotvaD DoS DIp
'oHtaH nungbogh DIp'e'. moHaqvaD
chuHwI' DIp mojlaw' nungbogh DIp.
ghu'vam vIqelmeH DIvI' Hol qechmey
/subject/ /object/ je,
jImISqu'choH. 'ach vuDlIj QIjmeH
/subject/ /object/ je wuv SuStel.
rarchu'be' tlhIngan Hol,
qechmeyvam je 'e' vIQub.<br>
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<div>ghu'vam le'mo', SuStel vuD
vIHon. latlh meq vIghaj. 'oSlaHbe'
wot'e' tlhejbogh <-lu'>
<-wI'> je, 'eb lonlu'pu' 'ej
pagh chavlu'.</div>
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<p>Hoch 'eb jon Hol 'e' SaHbe' Hol.<br>
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<div>'a chaq SaH tlhInganpu'. 'eb tu'DI',
lulo' 'e' bot nuq? lubotlaHbe'ba' tera'ngan
Holtej. 'a 'eb lulo' luneHbe' tlhIngan,
SIghlaHbe' je tera'ngan Holtej.<br>
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<p>Arguing over whether a Klingon would or would not
care about a particular grammatical feature is not a
useful line of reasoning, in my view.<br>
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<div>No, but as any of us who've studied a natural language
have observed (and it wouldn't surprise me if this applies
to every subscriber on this list), native speakers are
under no obligation to speak the language the way the
student expects, no matter how good the student's
reasoning. Our reasoning is ultimately of a kind with that
of the toddler who says "goed" instead of "went." Some of
my favorite moments in studying Klingon are Maltz's
revelations that Klingons don't speak the language the way
we'd expect.<br>
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<div>There's much to be said for your conservative approach,
that it is less likely to generate Klingon expressions
that no Klingon would accept than an approach that accepts
any Klingon expression that canon doesn't expressly
forbid.</div>
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</span><p>Yes, sometimes in our ignorance we say the grammatical equivalent
of <i>goed</i> instead of <i>went.</i> You're asking us to say <i>wented.</i><span class="gmail-HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br></font></span></p></div></blockquote>Let me state for the record that I do not assert that <b>-lu'wI'</b> is good Klingon; I can't possibly know that. The safe bet is that it is not. I merely find the arguments against it, while persuasive, are not conclusive, and have presented my reasons for thinking this. I also think it's a good thing that we can carry on disagreeing about it, without either side getting run out of town. Eventually I'd like to hear from Maltz about it, so we find something else to argue about.<br><br></div><div class="gmail_quote">~mIp'av<br></div></div></div>