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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/17/2017 11:24 PM, Ed Bailey wrote:<br>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 5:36 PM,
David Holt <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:kenjutsuka@live.com" target="_blank">kenjutsuka@live.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
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<p>I have a project I'm working on and I would like to
figure out the most efficient way to elicit the
image of rendered fat as a thing. Is {tlhag} the
subject of {'Im} and thus {'Impu'wI'} might work?
Or is {tlhag} the object of {'Im} and thus we might
have to go with the unwieldy {tlhagh
'Imlu'pu'bogh}? What about {-wI'} with {-lu'}
- {'Imlu'pu'wI'}?</p>
<p>Jeremy</p>
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<div>Oh, boy, the {-lu'} plus {-wI'} thing again! I so
wish MO would finally rule on this, since it's
immediately obvious to some this combination nominalizes
the same way as "-ee" in "employee," but others regard
the construction as grammatical gibberish, and they seem
to have convinced most to avoid using it. (I can't help
but suspect the difficulty with {-lu'} plus {-wI'} has a
lot to do with a programming background, since the
objection is often phrased as "I can't make that mean
anything," which sounds a lot like a compiler error to
me.)<br>
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<p>I understand your interpretation perfectly well, thank you very
much. I just think it's wrong.</p>
<p><b>-wI'</b> has the effect of nominalizing the verb into the
subject of that verb. A <b>vutwI'</b> is the thing that performs
<b>vut,</b> the subject of <b>vut.</b></p>
<p>If you were to say <b>*vutlu'wI',</b> you'd be trying to
nominalize the verb into a nonexistent subject. No one in
particular performs <b>vutlu',</b> so it makes no sense to talk
about the noun that performs <b>vutlu'.</b></p>
<p>If *<b>vutlu'wI'</b> were to mean <i>that which is cooked,</i>
you'd be nominalizing the verb into its object, which is not what
<b>-wI'</b> does. There's a very strong reason to think that's
what it means if you're thinking in English: English passive voice
turns the thing acted upon into the subject. <b>Soj vutlu'</b><i>
the food is cooked,</i> so it would seem natural to say
nominalizing that refers to the food. But it doesn't. English
passive voice doesn't exist in Klingon; the active voice
translation of <b>Soj vutlu'</b> is <i>one cooks the food,</i>
and so we're nominalizing the verb into the cook. But that's no
different than nominalizing straight <b>vut,</b> so the <b>-lu'</b>
has absolutely nothing to do with the meaning of <b>-wI'.</b> The
two simply don't go together.</p>
<p>As for a parallel with English <i>-ee,</i> remember that <b>-wI'</b>
is equivalent to English <i>-er,</i> not <i>-ee,</i> and even in
English you need a whole different suffix to nominalize to the
object instead of the subject.<br>
</p>
<p>The only way this could work would be if Okrand were to
arbitrarily make up a new rule that says adding <b>-wI'</b> to a
verb with <b>-lu'</b> changes the process to refer to the object
of the verb instead of the subject. He hasn't said this, he hasn't
done this, and there is no way to deduce that rule from existing
rules. It only seems right because you're thinking in English
passive voice.<br>
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<div>"Boil" can take an object or not, of course, but the
online OED gives only transitive definitions for
"render":<br>
<br>
<span class="gmail-ind">"Melt down (fat) in order to
clarify it.</span>
<div class="exg">
<div class="ex"> <em>‘the fat was being cut up and
rendered for lard’</em></div>
</div>
<span class="gmail-ind">Process (the carcass of an
animal) in order to extract proteins, fats, and other
usable parts.</span>
<div class="exg">
<div class="ex"> <em>‘the rendered down remains of
sheep’ "<br>
<br>
</em></div>
<div class="ex">So I'd expect {tlhag} is the object of
{'Im}. 'ej bIjatlhchugh <'Imlu'pu'wI'>, vay'
'Imlu'pu'bogh 'oH 'e' SIbI' vIyaj.</div>
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<p>Why are we dropping the h in <b>gh</b>?</p>
<p>Clearly, the correct phrase is <b>tlhagh 'Imlu'pu'bogh</b><i>
rendered fat.</i> I'm not sure why this is supposed to be
unwieldy; Okrand has used this sort of formation a number of
times. <b>Soj vutlu'pu'bogh</b><i> food that somebody has
prepared</i> as opposed to <b>Soj tlhol</b><i> raw, unprocessed
food;</i><b> boqrat chej Qevlu'pu'bogh</b><i> stewed bokrat
liver;</i> <b>pIpyuS pach HaHlu'pu'bogh</b><i> marinated pipius
claw </i>(all from KGT);<b> to'baj 'uSHom lughoDlu'bogh</b><i>
stuffed tobaj leg </i>(PK).<br>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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