<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/7/2016 12:06 AM, Ed Bailey wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABSTb1fCJPc9-Px67Z4hrfLzEyvAg1m_G0uuVyi9Yy0tiDJ1ag@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div class="gmail_extra">This is something I puzzled over for
quite a while: what role is played by the object of a transitive
verb plus <b>-moH</b>? In the case of <b>raS vIyuvmoH</b>,
obviously the table isn't doing the pushing. But in the second
example of this type of construction in TKD, <b>HIQoymoH </b><let
me hear (something)>, the object is the speaker, who would be
the one doing the hearing. So in some cases in which there is
only an object without a Type 5 suffix, the object can assume
either role unambiguously despite the apparent lack of a fixed
grammatical rule to determine it, just as in English one can say
both "She teaches French" and "She teaches the children." Of
course, since both types of object are frequently required, as
in "She teaches the children French," I was delighted when I
learned about the <b>-vaD</b>/<b>-moH</b> construction.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>There are more things at work here. The prefix trick teaches us
that the prefix doesn't always indicate the direct object;
something it refers to an indirect object. This might be <b>QoQ
HIQoymoH</b><i> cause me to hear the music, </i>in which case
the direct object in the object position is third-person <b>QoQ</b>
but the prefix agrees with an unstated indirect object, <b>jIH.</b></p>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABSTb1fCJPc9-Px67Z4hrfLzEyvAg1m_G0uuVyi9Yy0tiDJ1ag@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div class="gmail_extra">But here's a question about <b>HIQoymoH</b>:
what if you meant to say <let me be heard> instead?
Depending on context, couldn't you use the same expression?
Alternatively, my first instinct is just to avoid the whole <b>-moH</b>
problem and say <b>vIQoylu' 'e' yIchaw'</b>. Or are there
better ways to say <let me be heard>?<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Since there is no verb in Klingon that means <i>be heard,</i>
you have to build the meaning off of <b>Qoy</b> <i>hear.</i>
What does <i>let me be heard</i> mean? It means <i>cause someone
to hear me.</i> <b>HIQoymoH.</b> Oops. You can remove some
ambiguity by making the <i>someone</i> explicit: <b>vay'vaD
HIQoymoH.</b></p>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABSTb1fCJPc9-Px67Z4hrfLzEyvAg1m_G0uuVyi9Yy0tiDJ1ag@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div class="gmail_extra">Here's another question: can<b> -vaD</b>
always work with <b>-moH</b> on a transitive verb to make an
unambiguous sentence? Is the noun plus <b>-vaD</b> always going
to be that which is made to do something, or could it still be
the beneficiary of the action, as with <b>nob</b>?* To expand
on the example from TKD, might you construe <b>beqvaD HIQoymoH</b>
as <let the crew hear me> or <let me hear for the
crew> or both? (My expectation is that a sentence using the <b>-vaD</b>/<b>-moH</b>
construction is likely to be ambiguous out of context, but since
it's a known construction, the favored interpretation is that
the noun with <b>-vaD</b> performs the action of the verb, and
that context would make it clear in almost any case.)<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
It remains ambiguous.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABSTb1fCJPc9-Px67Z4hrfLzEyvAg1m_G0uuVyi9Yy0tiDJ1ag@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">*Obviously there's no way to add <b>-moH</b> to the
sentence <b>torghvaD taj nob matlh</b> to make Kruge cause Maltz
to give Torg the knife. Or is there?</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Not that I know of.</p>
<p><b>-moH</b> simply changes the subject from the entity doing the
action into the entity causing the action to be done. The object
changes from indicating what the action is done to, to either what
the <i>action</i> is done to or what the <i>causing</i> is done
to. If the sentences has both, then what the causing is done to is
considered an indirect object and given <b>-vaD.</b></p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
</body>
</html>