<p dir="ltr"><br>
qurgh and SuStel, thank you for taking the time to explain all this !</p>
<p dir="ltr">..once more I came across an area of grammar, I was totally unaware of ! thank qeylIS for writing today's "the passing", during which I came across this matter.</p>
<p dir="ltr">After reading your replies, I think I understand how this works;</p>
<p dir="ltr">the subject of the {-moH}ed verb causes the {-vaD}ed noun to do whatever the verb says. the question however is "what prefix goes on the {-moH}ed verb. and seemingly this is determined like this: the one who causes the action is the subject, and whatever is before the {-moH}ed verb is the object.</p>
<p dir="ltr">So, lets write some examples:</p>
<p dir="ltr">they caused us to see the cat<br>
maHvaD vIghro' luleghmoH</p>
<p dir="ltr">they made you (plural) correct the student<br>
tlhIHvaD ghojwI' lulughmoH</p>
<p dir="ltr">you (plural) made them touch the cat<br>
chaHvaD vIghro' boHotmoH</p>
<p dir="ltr">we made you (plural) touch the cat<br>
tlhIHvaD vIghro' wIHotmoH</p>
<p dir="ltr">we made you (plural) touch the cats<br>
tlhIHvaD vIghro'mey DIHotmoH</p>
<p dir="ltr">are the above correct ?</p>
<p dir="ltr">qunnoH jan puqloD<br>
ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'</p>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 6 Dec 2016 8:42 pm, "SuStel" <<a href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name">sustel@trimboli.name</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div class="m_-3683681129795583601moz-cite-prefix">On 12/6/2016 1:16 PM, mayqel qunenoS
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p dir="ltr">there is something I noticed on {-moH}.</p>
<p dir="ltr">If we use it on an intransitive verb it makes it
transitive:</p>
<p dir="ltr">jISaQ I cry<br>
qaSaQmoH I make you cry</p>
<p dir="ltr">But what if we place it on a transitive ?</p>
<p dir="ltr">jIchoH I change<br>
qachoH I change you<br>
qachoHmoH I cause you to change</p>
<p dir="ltr">jIyuv I push<br>
qayuv I push you<br>
qayuvmoH I cause you to push</p>
<p dir="ltr">I don't know how to describe it in grammar terms, but
it seems that as soon as we place the {-moH} on a transitive
verb, then the object can't "do what the verb says to someone or
something else".</p>
<p dir="ltr">If I write qayuvmoH for I make you push, then I may
obviously be saying "I make you push", but how do I say "I make
you push the table" ?</p>
<p dir="ltr">raS qayuvmoH ? Is this correct ? can we have the
{raS} just sitting there unmarked ? </p>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Shame on you for not paying attention!</p>
<p>The current thinking, supported by a couple of canonical
sentences, seems to be that your desired sentence would be: <b>SoHvaD
raS vIyuvmoH.</b></p>
<p>My explanation for this is that one must do more than blindly
follow syntax; one must examine the semantic role each noun is
playing. There is an action, <b>yuv.</b> Someone pushes the
table, <b>raS yuv.</b> I cause the table to be pushed, <b>raS
vIyuvmoH</b> (doesn't say who pushes it; I cause the action so
I'm the subject and it's done to the table so the table is the
object). I cause you to push it, <b>SoHvaD raS vIyuvmoH;</b>
you're the receiver of what I did (cause the pushing).</p>
<p>We can play this game with other sentences:</p>
<p><b>quHDaj qaw </b><i>he</i><i> remembers his heritage<br>
</i><b>quHDaj qawmoH Ha'quj</b><i> the sash reminds (someone) of
his heritage<br>
</i><b>ghaHvaD quHDaj qawmoH Ha'quj</b><i> the sash reminds him of
his heritage</i><br>
</p>
<p><b>yIn Hegh je ghoj</b><i> he learns life and death<br>
</i><b>yIn Hegh je vIghojmoH</b><i> I teach life and death (to
someone)<br>
</i><b>ghaHvaD yIn Hegh je vIghojmoH</b><i> I teach him life and
death</i></p>
<p>Guess what! Those are based on canon sentences:</p>
<p><b>tuQtaHvIS Hem. ghaHvaD quHDaj qawmoH </b> <i>He wears it
proudly as a reminder of his heritage. </i>(SkyBox S20)</p>
<p><b>petaQvam vIqopbej / QIt ghaHvaD yIn Hegh je vIghojmoH</b><i> I
will bring this p'takh to justice / And teach him life and death</i></p>
<p>Now remember, and this is extremely important: this is perhaps
the most controversial, war-causing, pain-inducing topic on this
list <i><b>EVER.</b></i> Be very careful when talking about it.
Think before you post.<i><b></b></i><br>
</p>
<pre class="m_-3683681129795583601moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="m_-3683681129795583601moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name" target="_blank">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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