<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/28/2016 4:33 AM, mayqel qunenoS
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAP7F2cLA9dL-LqipXhHudYnfaRm4hGBx7oG-wbAi=ncwB7E0wg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">SuStel:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">nuq wIta' boneH?
Okrand has done this, in TalkNow!: nuq Datlhutlh DaneH what do you want to drink?
This isn't necessarily license to use any question-as-object, but it seems that simple
substitutions like this work.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
how do we define "simple" ? where does the simple stop and the complex
begins ? what do you mean by "simple substitutions" ?</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p><b>'Iv</b> and <b>nuq.</b> They simply plug in where the answer
goes.</p>
<p>The other question words don't work like this. There's a case to
be made for <b>'ar,</b> if you consider the noun and the question
word together as a unit:</p>
<p><b>*HIq 'ar Datlhutlh DaneH<br>
</b><i>how many ales do you want to drink?</i><br>
</p>
<p>This seems perfectly reasonable to me.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAP7F2cLA9dL-LqipXhHudYnfaRm4hGBx7oG-wbAi=ncwB7E0wg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">ghunchu'wI':
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">If a Question As Object actually asks a question, it is not usually a problem.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
hmm.. this is interesting. but again the problem (for me) is how to
define the "If a Question As Object actually asks a question". This
sounds more as something that the reader is expecting/knowing in
advance, rather that a QAO unambiguously being translated as a QAO and
nothing else.
As weird as this may sound, I can't learn grammar; never could..
grammar terms confuse me. So, let me try to make a rule out of this
and correct me if I'm wrong:
SuStel's {nuq wIta' boneH} and 'oqranD {nuq Datlhutlh DaneH}, have the
following structure: the object of the {neH} is a question, and the
answer to that question can be placed as an object to the {neH}.</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Actually, I don't think that's what's happening. The whole
combined sentence is a question. The questioning part is <b>nuq</b>
and the rest of the sentence is <b>Datlhutlh DaneH.</b></p>
<p>Consider the creation of a normal question. Start with the
answer:</p>
<p><b>'Iw HIq Datlhutlh</b></p>
Now assume you don't know what the answer is... hide it:
<p><b>??? Datlhutlh</b></p>
<p>Now use a question word in its place:</p>
<p><b>nuq Datlhutlh<br>
</b></p>
<p>So do the same thing with a sentence-as-object:</p>
<p><b>'Iw HIq Datlhutlh DaneH<br>
??? Datlhutlh DaneH<br>
nuq Datlhutlh DaneH</b></p>
<p>At no point in the process was there ever a standalone question,
<b>nuq Datlhutlh.</b> The substitution acts on the pre-existing
sentence-as-object construction. This isn't really a
question-as-object; it's just a question in which the <b>nuq</b>
stands in for the answer as it always does.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAP7F2cLA9dL-LqipXhHudYnfaRm4hGBx7oG-wbAi=ncwB7E0wg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">So, in the original post could I have written: {chay' tlhIHvaD mavang
boneH} for "how do you want us to act ?"</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>With <b>neH</b> this becomes uncertain, because it's unclear
whether the <b>chay'</b> is attached to the object or the main
clause. Let's look at this with <b>'e'</b> instead.</p>
<p><b>*chay' tlhIHvaD mavang 'e' bolegh</b></p>
<p>This is supposed to be asking how you saw us acting toward you.
But <b>chay'</b> does not perform a simple substitution. This is
confusing the English <i>how</i> as a conjunction with <i>how</i>
as an adverb.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAP7F2cLA9dL-LqipXhHudYnfaRm4hGBx7oG-wbAi=ncwB7E0wg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Suppose I write:
{chay' tlhIHvaD mavang? 'e' yIngu'}
how do you want us to act ? specify it !
or
{chay' tlhIHvaD mavang? maHvaD 'e' yIngu'}
how do you want us to act ? for us you specify it !
would these be acceptable ?</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>No.<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
</body>
</html>