<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default"><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><font face="times new roman, serif"><b>@Voragh:</b></font><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span></span></font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US">1/ Thanks
for sharing the full canon references on < pong >. I realize I was
actually using the prefix trick in my exercises at home without realizing it. Looking at the
examples, I figure the most correct sentence structure in those cases is as
below:<span></span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US"><br></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang="EN-US">[indirect object]-vaD [direct object] [verb] <span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;margin-left:35.4pt"><span lang="EN-US">(who is called)-vaD (what they’re called)
(verb)<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US"><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">So I would
assume that this structure is also valid for any similar verb that can have 2
objects, like < </font><font face="times new roman, serif">jatlh </font><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">> (tell, say)<span></span></font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US"><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US">Thus,
taking the example “I told you no” (“you” being singular here):<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US"><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US">Correct/classical
grammar:<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><font face="times new roman, serif">SoHvaD <
ghobe’ > vIjatlhta’</font><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span></span></font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Here the verb
prefix is </span><font face="times new roman, serif">vI </font><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">(I--it), agreeing with the direct object < ghobe’ >.</font><br></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US"><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US">Prefix
trick:<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><font face="times new roman, serif">< ghobe’
> qajatlhta’</font><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span></span></font></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US">with the
prefix agreeing with the indirect object “you”.<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US"><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US">(If I’m
getting it wrong, as always I really appreciate your corrections!)<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">2/
Regarding </font><font face="times new roman, serif">’egh</font><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"> : thanks for your full explanation on this, it’s all clear now and
duly noted!<span></span></font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US"><br></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US">3/ </span></p><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote"><span lang="EN-US" style="line-height:107%;font-family:arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">[Yes Aurélie, there is
a different verb for each finger and toe!]</span></blockquote><p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="line-height:107%;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><font face="times new roman, serif">tlhaQ ’oHvam</font></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;line-height:107%;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"> ! :D<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US" style="line-height:107%;font-family:arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial">I wonder which language (if any) inspired this peculiarity in Klingon!<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><b><font face="times new roman, serif">@De’vID</font></b><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span></span></font></span></p>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote"><span lang="EN-US">This is
true for verbs of movement. But for verbs describing a state, the imperative
requires {-'eghmoH}</span></blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US">Duly noted
too, many thanks!<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:12pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="line-height:107%;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><b><font face="times new roman, serif">@Lieven / Quvar </font></b><span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;margin-top:12pt"><span lang="EN-US">1/ While we’re all influenced by our mother tongues when learning or
speaking new languages, it can also be a strength sometimes. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;margin-top:12pt"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">For the –lu’ suffix, I like to compare it to the French “on” (3</span><sup style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">rd</sup><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">
person singular pronoun), which also conveys that the subject of the sentence
is an indefinite someone (except when “on” means “we” – it depends on the
context – but I digress). So, comparing & seeing where it’s similar (or
not) helps me learn.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:12pt"><span lang="EN-US">Similarly, in my notes on verbal prefixes, I translated the TKD prefix
table into French, because we have 2 distinct pronouns for “you” (singular “tu”
and plural “vous”), and Klingon makes the same singular/plural distinction. <span></span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:12pt"><span lang="EN-US">Did you use similar techniques when learning Klingon, comparing some of
its features with other languages to help you learn?<span></span></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;margin-top:12pt"><span lang="EN-US">
</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:12pt"><span lang="EN-US"> 2/ Thanks also for sharing
comparative French - German examples – I’m still a beginner in German so it helps my German-learning too!</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:12pt"><span lang="EN-US"><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top:12pt"><span lang="EN-US"><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">~</font><font face="times new roman, serif">mughwI'</font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;margin-top:12pt"><span lang="EN-US"><br></span></p></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">2016-10-05 16:13 GMT+02:00 Steven Boozer <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sboozer@uchicago.edu" target="_blank">sboozer@uchicago.edu</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Aurélie :<br>
<span class="gmail-">>> So then if someone gives an order to 1 other person to sit in Klingon,<br>
>> it will be < yIba’ > but not < yIba’egh >, because in English you<br>
>> would normally say “sit down” but not “sit yourself down” (although<br>
>> the 2nd phrasing does actually exist, it seems to be nonstandard).<br>
<br>
</span>De'vID:<br>
<span class="gmail-">> This is true for verbs of movement. But for verbs describing a state, the<br>
> imperative requires {-'eghmoH}. You can't say, e.g., "be hot!", but must<br>
> say "Make yourself hot!" See KGT (Klingon for the Galactic<br>
> Traveler) p. 117.<br>
<br>
</span>For those who don't have a copy KGT:<br>
<br>
(KGT 117): Generally, when a verb describing a state of being (for example, {tuj} ["be hot"]) is used in the imperative form, the suffixes {-'egh} (reflexive suffix) and {-moH} (cause) are used as well...<br>
<br>
yItuj'eghmoH<br>
Heat yourself! ("Cause yourself to be hot!")<br>
<br>
yItaD'eghmoH<br>
Freeze yourself! ("Cause yourself to be frozen!")<br>
<br>
Okrand has two other non-imperative examples:<br>
<br>
quv'eghmoH<br>
he/she honors him/herself (st.k 11/1997)<br>
<br>
muptaHvIS tay''eghmoH QeHDaj Hoch<br>
All his rage focused in one blow (PB)<br>
<br>
<br>
However - and with Okrand there is always a "however"! - there are some peculiarities with {-'egh}. Here are two of them:<br>
<br>
(st.k 7/1999): Though not common, it is also possible to use {tatlh} with the reflexive suffix {-'egh} ("do something to oneself") to convey a meaning similar to that of {chegh}:<br>
pa'Daq jItatlh'egh "I return to the room" ...<br>
The {tatlh'egh} form seems to suggest that the doer of the action is forcing himself/herself to do something, perhaps because it is difficult or not desirable.<br>
<br>
tatlh return (something) (v)<br>
chegh return (to a place) (v)<br>
<br>
<br>
(HQ 10.2:8-9): There are some special uses of the reflexive forms of the finger verbs. For example, while {ghIchwIj vISIq} means "I touch my nose with my index finger" and {ghIchwIjDaq jISIq} means "I point at my nose with my index finger", the phrase {ghIchwIjDaq jISIq'egh} (with {–'egh} "oneself"), literally "I use at myself my index finger at my nose", is used for "I pick my nose with my index finger". Similarly, {nujDajDaq rIl'egh ghu}, literally "at his/her mouth, the baby uses at him/herself his/her thumb", is used for "the baby sucks its thumb". [...] It also works with the toe verbs: {nujDajDaq mar'egh ghu} "the baby sucks its big toe".<br>
<br>
SIq use the index finger (v)<br>
rIl use the thumb (v)<br>
mar use the big toe (v)<br>
<br>
[Yes Aurélie, there is a different verb for each finger and toe!]<br>
<span class="gmail-im gmail-HOEnZb"><br>
<br>
--<br>
Voragh<br>
tlhIngan ghantoH pIn'a'<br>
Ca'Non Master of the Klingons<br>
<br>
<br>
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