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<p class="MsoNormal">mayqel qunenoS wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>>> {-Qo'} always occurs last, unless followed by type 9 suffixes.<b><i><span style="color:#44546A">
</span></i></b><span style="color:#44546A"><br>
</span>>> but if I have {-Qo'} and {-taHvIS} together, then what do I do ?<span style="color:#44546A"><br>
</span>>> {-taHQo'vIS} or {Qo'taHvIS} ?<br>
<br>
<span style="font-family:Courier">maygel is right: {-Qo’} comes last when used with an imperative verb:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">(TKD 47): The suffix {-<b>be'}</b> cannot be used with imperative verbs. For imperatives, the following suffix is required. This negative suffix is used in imperatives and to denote refusal.
<br>
<b>yIja'Qo'</b> <i>don't tell him/her</i>! <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier"> <b>choja'Qo'chugh</b>
<i>if you won't tell me</i>, <i>if you refuse to tell me</i>,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier"> <b>HIHoHvIpQo'</b>
<i>don't be afraid to kill me</i>! <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">Unlike {-<b>be'}</b>, the position of {-<b>Qo'}</b> does not change: it occurs last, unless followed by a Type 9 suffix. Nevertheless, it is considered a rover because it is the imperative counterpart to
{-<b>be'}</b>.<br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#44546A"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#44546A">More examples from canon:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">yIjatlhQo'</span></b><span style="font-family:Courier">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">Be quiet! (Don't speak!) TKD<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">qaja'pu' HIqaghQo'</span></b><span style="font-family:Courier"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">HIqaghQo' qaja'pu'</span></b><span style="font-family:Courier">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">I told you not to interrupt me.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">I told you, "Don't interrupt me!"
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">"Don't interrupt me" I told you. TKD
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">mImQo' <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">Do not delay. (ST5 notes) (clipped)<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">HIHotQo' <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">Don't touch me! CK<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">chuch yIqemQo'</span></b><span style="font-family:Courier">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">Do not bring ice! PK<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">QuchwIj roSQo' <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">Do not lick my forehead!<b>
</b>PK (clipped)<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">mevQo'</span></b><span style="font-family:Courier">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">Don't stop! SAREK (clipped)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier"><br>
<b>Dujeychugh jagh nIv yItuHQo'</b> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">There is nothing shameful in falling before a superior enemy.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">("If a superior enemy defeats you, don't be ashamed"). TKW<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier"><br>
<b>bISuv 'e' yIwIv; bISutlh 'e' yIwIvQo'</b> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">Choose to fight, not negotiate. TKW<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">ghIlab ghewmey tIbuSQo'</span></b><span style="font-family:Courier">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">Pay no heed to <i>glob</i> flies. TKW<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">ghewmey tISuqQo'</span></b><span style="font-family:Courier">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">Don't catch any bugs. TKW<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">Ha'DIbaH DaSop 'e' DaHechbe'chugh yIHoHQo'</span></b><span style="font-family:Courier">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">Do not kill an animal unless you intend to eat it. TKW<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">pIj monchugh vay' yIvoqQo'</span></b><span style="font-family:Courier">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">Don't trust those who frequently smile. TKW<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">nobmey qembogh yIrIDnganpu''e' yIvoqQo'</span></b><span style="font-family:Courier">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">Don't trust Yridians who bring gifts. TKW<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">Huch nobHa'bogh verenganpu''e' yIvoqQo'</span></b><span style="font-family:Courier">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">Don't trust Ferengi who give back money. TKW<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">yIQeqQo' neH</span></b><span style="font-family:Courier">. <b>DoS yIqIp</b>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">Don't just aim; hit the target! TKW<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">to'waQ yIyIvQo'</span></b><span style="font-family:Courier">;
<b>DaH yIwuq</b>! <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">Don't chew ligament; decide now! KGT<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">yIlIjQo'</span></b><span style="font-family:Courier">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">Don't forget. KGT<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">HItojQo'</span></b><span style="font-family:Courier">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">Don't deceive me. KGT<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">HItlhochQo'</span></b><span style="font-family:Courier">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">Don't contradict me. KLS<br>
<br>
<b><o:p></o:p></b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">yItlhapQo' </span></b><span style="font-family:Courier"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">[Leave him! (<i>untranslated</i>)] (ENT "Affliction")<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:#C00000">qaStaHvIS wanI’vam yIDachQo’</span></b>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Don't miss this event! (WSC)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<b><span style="font-family:Courier;color:#C00000">quv HIja'chuqQo'</span></b><span style="font-family:Courier">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">Don't speak to me of honor. PB<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier"><br>
</span><b><span style="color:#C00000">"GO" yIjuSQo'. cha'vatlh QaS yItlhapQo'.</span></b><b>
<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Do not pass "GO". Do not gain 200 forces. MKE<span style="font-family:Courier"><br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#44546A"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p>SuStel:<br>
> <b>-taHvIS</b> is not a suffix; it is two suffixes. You can also put <b>-neS</b> in there.<br>
> <b>SoptaHQo'vIS</b><br>
> <i>while he is refusing to eat<br>
</i>> <b>bIqettaHneSvIS<br>
</b>> <i>while you are running, sir</i><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#44546A">Although SuStel is right in that these forms are theoretically possible (i.e. prescriptive grammar), in fact we’ve never seen them “in the field” as it were (i.e.
descriptive grammar). When used with a non-imperative verb to mean “refuse” {-Qo’} follows the TKD rule – i.e. it is only followed by a Type 9 suffix (and only 2 examples known):<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">bIjatlhQo'chugh</span></b><span style="font-family:Courier">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">if you refuse to speak. TKD<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">choja'Qo'chugh</span></b><span style="font-family:Courier">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">if you won't tell me <o:p>
</o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">if you refuse to tell me TKD<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">otherwise {-Qo’} still comes last:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">tera'nganvaD romuluS HIq jabQo'
<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">They won't serve Romulan ale to Terrans.<b>
</b>CK (clipped?)<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">'ang'eghQo' quv Hutlhbogh jagh neH ghobtaHvIS ghaH</span></b><span style="font-family:Courier">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">Only an enemy without honor refuses to show himself in battle. TKW<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier">mamevQo'</span></b><span style="font-family:Courier">. <b>maSuvtaH</b>. <b>ma'ov</b>.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">Battling on through the Eternal fight. (Anthem)<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">And from </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#44546A">Okrand’s translation of Shakespeare’s
</span><span style="font-family:Courier">Sonnet 116:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""> yab matlh muvchuqghach Sorgh vay' 'e' vIbotjaj.</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:red"> nge'wI' rurQo' bangna'; SIHlu'be'chu'.</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">
<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""> Let me not to the marriage of true minds</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""> admit impediments. Love is not love<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""> which alters when it alteration finds,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""> or bends with the remover to remove:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#44546A">(lit. “</span><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"">A real lover refuses to be like a remover; (s)he is completely unbent”)</span></i><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p>SuStel also wrote:<br>
> I'm not so sure about <b>-qu'</b> because, while grammatically legal, it would mean
<i><br>
> while CONTINUOUSLY (as opposed to something else),</i> but every Klingon <br>
> w<i>hile</i> continuous so there is nothing else. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#44546A">We do have a single example of {-qu’} with {-taHvIS} from Sonnet 116 again:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""> ghobe'! qarbejbogh DoDvam qontaH 'u'</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""> jevqu'taHvIS muD ral, bejlI' parmaq.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""> Qombe'! nISbe' jevwI', 'ej not ruS baq.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""> Oh, no! It is an ever-fixed mark.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New""> That looks on tempests and is never shaken.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">(lit. “While the violent atmosphere storms, love still watches”)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#44546A">This, of course, is poetry so the rules may be somewhat relaxed here for effect.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p>> Likewise with <b>-be',</b> because you can't have <i>while not continuously</i> when every<br>
> <i>while</i> is <i>continuous.<o:p></o:p></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier">HetaQ one reported that:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier"> Krankor asked Okrand at <i>
qep'a' loSDIch</i> whether {-<b>be'}<o:p></o:p></b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:Courier"></span></b><span style="font-family:Courier"> could be inserted between {-<b>taH}</b> and {-<b>vIS}</b> for a suffix<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier"> combination {-<b>taHbe'vIS}</b> (meaning something like “<i>while<o:p></o:p></i></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-family:Courier"> discontinuously”</span></i><span style="font-family:Courier">). The answer was: "That's an interesting<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:Courier"> question." <br>
<br>
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#44546A"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#44546A">and I can find no examples of {-be’}, {-taH} and {-vIS} – in any combination -- used together.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#44546A">Note too that none of the above examples have an aspectual suffix on the same verb with {-Qo’}.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">--<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Voragh<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">tlhIngan ghantoH pIn'a'<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Ca'Non Master of the Klingons<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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