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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 7/14/2016 4:21 AM, De'vID wrote:<br>
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cite="mid:CA+7zAmPB8de8MO9ddjtfHj+uq+YwPfruLPWzt=4PHqPJdCp38w@mail.gmail.com"
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<pre wrap="">On 13 July 2016 at 17:08, SuStel <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name"><sustel@trimboli.name></a> wrote:
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<pre wrap="">We got our first question-as-object sentence from Okrand in TalkNow!: nuq
Datlhutlh DaneH What do you want to drink? This supports the idea that you
can use the pronoun-like (not relative pronoun) question words nuq and 'Iv
in the place of the answer, just as TKD describes, even if it's in the first
sentence of a sentence-as-object construction.
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
And in particular, {nuq Datlhutlh DaneH} does *not* mean "you want
what you drink".
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<pre wrap="">Would anyone on this mailing list even blink if they heard a Klingon
ask {'Iv vIHoH DaneH}? Or misinterpret it as "you want who I kill"?
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
I would blink, because I'd be thinking, "Oh, it's a question-as-object
construction, but it's one of the okay ones."
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">
I'm still not clear on what the criteria are for being not "one of the
okay ones".</pre>
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<p><br>
</p>
<p>That's exactly the problem: assuming we have no blanket rule
against QAO, which we might have, the criteria for the okay ones
are not clear at all due to insufficient examples. <b>nuq
Datlhutlh DaneH</b> appears to be a known good example. Beyond
that it's unclear to me.</p>
<p><br>
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<pre wrap="">As far as I can see, and perhaps I'm not seeing something, there is
nothing wrong from a Klingon grammar perspective with QAO
constructions. The problem is really of the question word being
misinterpreted as a relative pronoun, because question words and
relative pronouns happen to overlap in English (but not in Klingon).
</pre>
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<pre wrap="">I actually think {chay' veSDuj'a' vIghajlaH DaH 'e' boyajchoH} is a
perfectly grammatical Klingon sentence, just one that doesn't mean
what Krankor wrote it means.
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<pre wrap="">
If it's grammatical, I don't understand what it means.
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<pre wrap="">
Hmm. It's quite clear to me what it means, which doesn't mean that it
means anything. It also doesn't mean it's easy to express the meaning
in English.
Okay, do you understand {chay' maSuv 'e' ra'}? And do you accept that
this is asking a perfectly sensible question?</pre>
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<p>Sensible question? Yes. Legal grammar? I don't know. What DloraH
reported would suggest a recasting would be more appropriate: <b>SuvmeH
to'maj ra'bogh ghaH yIngu'</b><i> identify the our fighting
tactics which he commanded.</i> I recognize that this isn't a
case of an inappropriate relative pronoun.<br>
</p>
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cite="mid:CA+7zAmPB8de8MO9ddjtfHj+uq+YwPfruLPWzt=4PHqPJdCp38w@mail.gmail.com"
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<pre wrap="">Maybe one way to think of question words is that they are turning a
statement into a question. That's obvious with {nuq} and {'Iv}.</pre>
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<p><br>
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<p>But it's also the case that they operate differently than the
other question words: they stand in for the answer. Other question
words sometimes occupy the same space as the answer, but they
don't stand in for it.</p>
<p>I agree that there's nothing in TKD to directly contradict the
use of QAO, but there are questions about how it would work and
whether it's even allowed. I understand <i>how</i> you're
creating QAOs and usually what they mean. I'm saying our
understanding of them and their legality remains in question (as
object).<br>
</p>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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