[tlhIngan Hol] {mej} with and without {-vo'}

[Iikka Hauhio]

SuStel:

> And by the way, the gloss ofghoSalso includes "go away from." I have no doubt that you could say things likebIQtIqvo' vIghoSI go away from the river.ghoScan impart an ablative meaning to its object instead of a locative meaning, so we should not be surprised if adding the ablative suffix to the object has no effect on the sentence besides being redundant.

​

Is there evidence that ghoS can add the ablative meaning to its object? ghoS is used tens of times in canon and every time its object doesn't have any type-5 suffix it means "go (to)".

When ghoS is used to mean "go away from", it has -vo':

> chaH neH wovmoHlu'be'
> chaH 'emvo' ghoS
> SuvwI'pu' mangghomyoH
>
> The sun shone not on them only,
> Behind them came
> An army of brave warriors.
>
> (paq'batlh)

​

Based on the evidence we have I don't think we can say that a nominative object could have an ablative meaning. I think the definition just means that in some contexts (ie. when -vo' is used), the verb can be translated with "go away from".

Iikka "fergusq" Hauhio
------- Original Message -------
On Wednesday, May 25th, 2022 at 17.41, SuStel <sustel at trimboli.name> wrote:

> On 5/25/2022 10:18 AM, Will Martin wrote:
>
>> I noticed the same thing. It is strange to have the prefix suggest an object that has a Type 5 suffix (except {-‘e’} because, hey, {-'e’} is soooo exceptional). It’s more typical to say {bIQtIqDaq jIghoS} or {bIQtIq vIghoS} than {bIQtIqDaq vIghoS}.
>
> The object of the verb ghoS is the course being followed, possibly a course identified by its destination. That is, its object is already locative anyway, so there is no reason one couldn't add a -Daq to it. As TKD says, doing this is a little redundant, but not wrong. When a verb makes its object locative, adding the locative suffix doesn't change anything at all about the sentence.
>
> And by the way, the gloss of ghoS also includes "go away from." I have no doubt that you could say things like bIQtIqvo' vIghoS I go away from the river. ghoS can impart an ablative meaning to its object instead of a locative meaning, so we should not be surprised if adding the ablative suffix to the object has no effect on the sentence besides being redundant.
>
> This idea that objects should never have type 5 suffixes on them except for -'e' because it's exceptional and except for -Daq on certain verbs because the verbs are exceptional is a kludge made up by us, not Okrand. A more accurate "rule" would be that type 5 noun suffixes can go on any subject or object provided the verb supports locative/ablative/benefactive/causative/focus nouns in those positions. The role of focus is universal. A bunch of verbs support a locative object. A couple appear to support an ablative object. We know of none that support benefactive or causative objects or or any sort of subject other than a focus noun.
>
> The rule is not that subjects and objects cannot take type 5 suffixes; the rule is that nouns that aren't subject or objects come before the object and usually have type 5 suffixes. (Examples of nouns that aren't subject or object and don't have type 5 suffixes are time expressions.) There is no prohibition on putting type 5'd nouns on subjects or objects, and we're explicitly given instances where -Daq (and now -vo') go on objects.
>
>> Sure, you can do it. It’s just weird, even if Okrand does it.
>
> Only if you presume a rule that TKD doesn't actually state. This is one of those "we made ourselves think this way" things.
>
>> One might expect a parallel between the use of {-Daq} with its special verbs and {-vo’} with its special verbs.
>
> The verbs are only special in that their objects are locations. You ghoS a location because ghoS is all about acting upon a location, so it's really not surprising when you put the location marker on the location you ghoS.
>
> --
> SuStel
> http://trimboli.name
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