[tlhIngan Hol] some info on {jatlh} and {jang}

De'vID de.vid.jonpin at gmail.com
Fri Jun 10 18:09:27 PDT 2022

There were a couple of lines that involved verbs of speaking in the
paq'batlh. Instead of snipping out parts of various discussions from all
over the place, I'm just going to summarise the conclusions.

Besides the "verbs of speech" lines in the paq'batlh, I provided Dr. Okrand
with the interview about verbs of speech in HolQeD 7:4, the
msn.onstage.startrek.expert.okrand message dated 1997-06-29 which had more
information on the grammar of {jatlh}, and pointed out the parts of TKD
dealing with {jatlh}, {-lu'}, and {net}.

In summary:
* The thing that is said just goes next to the sentence with {jatlh} (or
the verb of speech), with no {'e'}. (We already know this. I'm just
establishing context for what follows.)
* {jatlhlu'} (with no {'e'}) is correct when the speaker is unknown,
indefinite, and/or general (and not {net jatlh}). Quote: <{jatlhlu'} could
be translated "it is said," "so they say," "as one says," and so on.>
* MO is still unclear on "indirect quotation". Quote: <The interview you
cite [in HolQeD] is confusing because the phrase "indirect quotation" is
used sloppily (by me).>
* {jang} is a verb of speech in the paq'batlh. This is consistent with its
usage in Power Klingon (1993), but contradicts an interview in HolQeD 7:4
(1998). {jang; jatlh [blah]} is not wrong, just a bit redundant. (MO has
acknowledged that, in those days, he didn't have a way to easily access or
search everything he's previously written and so sometimes contradicts
himself. He expresses his appreciation for Klingonists who have made all of
his previous writings easily searchable.)

Clarifications to the msn post in more detail:
* In the msn message, MO made repeated references to the first- and
second-person without stating what happens in the third-person case.
Quoting from the post: <It is not by any means a complete discussion of the
several topics mentioned and I may have phrased things not as clearly as
they might be phrased.>
* To clarify, what he wrote also applies to the third-person when it makes
sense and the meaning is clear in context, which might depend on the verb.
For example, it would be impossible to use the prefix trick on a sentence
like "I speak Klingon to him" (because {vI-} already indicates the direct
object, {tlhIngan Hol} "Klingon", and thus cannot indicate the indirect
object, {ghaH} "him"). But {[ghaH] lujang} "they answer him" is fine in the
paq'batlh, because the only possible object in context is Molor.
* In particular: <When the indirect object (in this case, the hearer) is
first or second person, the pronominal prefix which normally indicates
first or second person object may be used.> This also applies to the
third-person, if there's no possibility of confusion (e.g., if nothing else
but Molor could've been the object of {lujang}).
* Also: <The verb {jatlh} can also be used when giving direct quotations...
If the speaker is first or second person, the pronominal prefix indicating
"no object" is used>. Again, this applies to the third person as well.
{tlhIngan Hol lujatlh} means "they speak Klingon", whereas {tlhIngan Hol
jatlh [chaH]} means "they say, 'Klingon language'". In the singular case,
{tlhIngan Hol jatlh [ghaH]}, the prefix does not distinguish between "she
speaks Klingon" and "she says, 'Klingon language'" (but normally it would
be understood as the first).
* The reason he didn't mention the third-person case in the post was
because of these complications (which don't exist for first- and
second-person) and he had wanted to keep the post short.

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