[tlhIngan Hol] verb prefix on XvaD Y ponglu' construction when Y is plural

[Iikka Hauhio]

De'vID:

> For Klingon, I don't think we have the canonical backing to make any firm conclusions, but my gut feeling is that the object of {pong} is really a word/phrase (or a set of words/phrases), so it depends on the number of names being used, not the number of things being named.
>
> chaHvaD tlhInganpu' ponglu'.
>
> tlhInganpu'vetlhvaD martaq ghawran je luponglu'.
>
> latlh tlhInganpu'vaD pongmey law' luponglu'.

​
I agree with this. However, the situation was that the festival has only one name that happens to be plural (perhaps similar to the United States example you gave).

Specifically, Dana'an's question has two separate questions combined:

- Are foreign plural words treated as grammatically singular or plural?
- If a plural word is a name and we refer to it as a name, is it grammatically singular or plural?

Answer to neither of these questions is obvious.

For the first question, given that in Klingon irregular plurals are treated as singular, I think it might well be that foreign plural words are also treated as singular. There is no evidence for this possibility either. It is also possible that Klingons recognize the foreign plural form and treat the word grammatically plural.

For the second question, I don't think we have enough evidence for either direction either.

Iikka "fergusq" Hauhio
------- Original Message -------
On Wednesday, July 6th, 2022 at 20.51, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm at kth.se> wrote:

>> In English, on the other hand, foreign plurals are acknoledged. We have no information on how Klingon works in this matter.
>
> I think this can vary quite a lot. For example, you'd normally say "The United States is a country.", rather than "The United States _are_ a country."
>
> With sports teams, on the other hand, one tends to use the plural form even when the team name is singular:
>
> "The Chicago Bulls are gonna win; they're the best."
>
> "Nuh-uh, Miami Heat are way better; they're gonna win for sure."
>
> ... although I'm pretty sure that you'd still use the singular form if you were specifically referring to the team's name, rather than to the team itself.
>
> "'The Chicago Bulls' is the name of a popular basketball team. Miami Heat are also a basketball team."
>
> For Klingon, I don't think we have the canonical backing to make any firm conclusions, but my gut feeling is that the object of {pong} is really a word/phrase (or a set of words/phrases), so it depends on the number of names being used, not the number of things being named.
>
> chaHvaD tlhInganpu' ponglu'.
>
> tlhInganpu'vetlhvaD martaq ghawran je luponglu'.
>
> latlh tlhInganpu'vaD pongmey law' luponglu'.
>
> //loghaD
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces at lists.kli.org> on behalf of Iikka Hauhio <fergusq at protonmail.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 6, 2022 6:56:09 PM
> To: tlhingan-hol at kli.org
> Cc: tlhingan-hol at lists.kli.org
> Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] verb prefix on XvaD Y ponglu' construction when Y is plural
>
> SuStel:
>
>> Being a foreign word has nothing to do whether a word is treated as singular or plural. It's plural. It should be treated grammatically as plural.
>
> ​That isn't clear. For example, in Finnish, foreign plurals aren't acknoledged. Either the plural loaned word is treated as singular, or the foreign plural suffix is replaced with the Finnish plural suffix and then the word is a native plural word. In English, on the other hand, foreign plurals are acknoledged. We have no information on how Klingon works in this matter.
>
> SuStel:
>
>> Being a name is irrelevant here, since the Klingon grammar isn't "it is called 'X'" but "one names the Xes." Literally, the Klingon sentence isn't directly assigning a label to something; it is saying that you name something, which you identify with the label with which you name it.
>
> ​
> YvaD X ponglu' doesn't mean "one names the Xs". I know that "name, call" is the gloss, but the grammar of pong does not match those English words. There is no English word that matches the grammar, but perhaps "is used" is somewhat similar in grammar: "[the name] X is used for Y". I imagine that the name doesn't even need to be a noun phrase, it could be a sentence: paqvaD «qul naj» ponglu'. In my opinion, if we imagine the name to be a kind of quote, whatever grammar it has is irrelevant from the point of view of the outer sentence.
>
> Of course, since we have know info on this matter, it could very well work the way you suggest. I'm only trying to give a plausible reason why it could work the other way. You must be careful not to make claims that sound like facts when they are in reality speculation.
>
> Iikka "fergusq" Hauhio
>
> ------- Original Message -------
> On Wednesday, July 6th, 2022 at 17.46, SuStel <sustel at trimboli.name> wrote:
>
>> On 7/6/2022 10:07 AM, Iikka Hauhio wrote:
>>
>>> SuStel:
>>>
>>>> Panatheneans,being plural, should be treated as plural when used as a foreign word in Klingon.yupma'vaD panatheneans ponglu'.
>>>
>>> ​
>>>
>>> I think there is an error in this message, since you use singular ponglu'. So do you think that the word should be treated as plural (and the verb should be luponglu'), or that the word should be treated as singular (and the verb should be ponglu')?
>>>
>>> In my opinion, the word should be treated as singular, since it's a name and a foreign word.
>>
>> Yes, I should have used the lu-.
>>
>> Being a foreign word has nothing to do whether a word is treated as singular or plural. It's plural. It should be treated grammatically as plural.
>>
>> Being a name is irrelevant here, since the Klingon grammar isn't "it is called 'X'" but "one names the Xes." Literally, the Klingon sentence isn't directly assigning a label to something; it is saying that you name something, which you identify with the label with which you name it.
>>
>> --
>> SuStel
>> http://trimboli.name
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