[tlhIngan Hol] 'eSpanya' 'ewrop je (Beginner's text and questions)

SuStel sustel at trimboli.name
Thu May 27 06:20:58 PDT 2021


On 5/27/2021 7:21 AM, luis.chaparro at web.de wrote:
> SuStel:
>   
>>> You could shorten this even more if you want: DIS 1986 'ewrop DIvI' lochchoHpu' 'eSpanya' Spain became a constituent of the European Union in the year 1986.
>> This was my first attempt, but then I was afraid it could be ambiguous (maybe the readers think Spain is no longer a member and they understand the *SepwIjvaD QaQqu' ghu'vam* as imperfective past). Although... maybe it was a little overly cautious, since context (e.g., the fact that I don't make a contrast between Spain being a member in the past and not being a member in the present) should make it clear. Unfortunately, I don't feel confident enough in Klingon yet to assess that accurately.

Klingon does not have a distinct imperfective. *lochchoHpu'* means 
*loch* /be a member of,/ *-choH*/change state (from not a member to a 
member)/ and *-pu'*/the action (of changing state) is completed./

Klingon also doesn't mark verbs for tense, so *lochchoHpu'* might be 
equally true of the past or future: /it became a constituent of; it will 
have become a constituent of./ Your time expression *(DIS 1986)* tells 
you which it is.


>>>> 2. I was not sure if *loch* only works for mathematics and *yugh* only for chemistry. If it is so, how could I say *be a part / member of* and *consist of* in >>Klingon?
>>> I think loch works fine here. We are told that loch is used in mathematics, but we aren't told that loch is only used in mathematics.
>> I assume the same goes for *yugh*, right?

Yes, with regards to chemistry. Specifically, Marc Okrand has used 
*yughmoH* to refer to computerized information filtering.


>>>> So if you want to say that Spain's member status is good, say QaQ ghu' the situation is good. If you want to say Spain's joining was good, say QaQ wanI'. You can >>also be more specific, saying things like QaQ muvpu'ghach having joined was good or QaQ lochchoHghach becoming a member was good.
>>>> Don't use perfective here: the joining being good hasn't ended. The joining has, but the being good hasn't. You can look back on the joining and still see that it >>was good.
>> Sorry, I didn't explain my question well. Let's say I want to express the joining was at that point in the past good (regardless of its still being good or not) because at that point in the past it solved a specific problem of Spain, and I speak about this problem. I'm only talking about the being good of this event in order to solve that problem in the past. Or to make it clearer: Let's say we speak about the UK. Is *QaQpu'qu'* right in this context? (Or should it be *QaQqu'pu'*?). Thank you!

Saying *QaQ lochchoHghach*///The joining was good/ doesn't imply that 
membership continues to be good. It only refers to the time of the 
change of state, the *-choH.*

You can be more specific with a time expression. For instance, *'ewrop 
DIvI' muvpu'DI' 'eSpanya', QaQ ghu'*/As soon as Spain had joined the 
European Union, the situation was good./ This doesn't say anything about 
the situation now.

You will usually want to avoid perfective markers on verbs expressing 
qualities. They're almost never what you're really trying to express. 
They do not mean "in the past," and they do not even necessarily mean 
"no longer true." *QaQpu'* means you're taking the viewpoint of looking 
back on something, and saying its goodness is completed. Usually, what 
you're really trying to say is that at a certain time, something was 
good. That requires no perfective.

-- 
SuStel
http://trimboli.name

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