[tlhIngan Hol] expressing "they are there"

De'vID de.vid.jonpin at gmail.com
Wed Feb 17 15:19:30 PST 2021

On Wed., Feb. 17, 2021, 20:38 Lieven L. Litaer, <levinius at gmx.de> wrote:

> Am 17.02.2021 um 18:05 schrieb De'vID:
> > Read the part in TKD 6.3 where it says "In the above examples, the
> > subjects are pronouns. If the subject is a noun, it follows the
> > third-person pronoun...". The fact that pronouns and nouns are treated
> > differently here rules out your substitution.
> That is all correct. But I do not see a strict rule saying that it is
> "not possible" to do what mayqel suggested. The rule only says what to
> do when the the subject is a noun.

The exclusion is implicit in the context, because pronouns are a subclass
of nouns. Consider that the subject is *always* a noun. (What else could it
be? A verb? An adverbial?) So wouldn't "If the subject is a noun" always be
true? Right after dealing with pronouns, it obviously means "If the subject
is a noun [which is not a pronoun]", in context.

I still believe that when we apply
> the rule described in chapter 3.3.5 talking about emphasis, mayqel's
> suggestion might work.

But only in Morskan. ;-)

(In standard Klingon, the {-'e'} already marks the subject in the copula,
so it can't do double duty as an emphasis marker. See KGT p.23.)

All just theoretically, but if you really take things exactly as
> written, that chapter also says. (upper case added for emphasis)
> "This suffix emphasizes that the NOUN to which it is attached is the
> topic of the sentence. In English, this is frequently accomplished by
> stressing the NOUN [...]
> And then, the first given example uses a PRONOUN.

Not a contradiction, because pronouns are a subclass of nouns, and in this
*other* context, they haven't been excluded.

I read {DujDaq maHtaH maH'e'} as an emphasis as the English "WE are in
> the shuttle." And I do not see where it breaks a rule.

In TKD section 6.3, which deals with "to be", it says "The pronoun always
follows the noun." The entire section assumes that there's only one pronoun
("the pronoun"), and it follows the noun object. After explaining the
simple case where there is only a pronoun (and no explicit noun subject),
it says "If the subject is a noun, it follows the third-person pronoun...
and takes the {-'e'} 'topic' suffix". (Note: "the third-person" pronoun,
not "a third-person pronoun".)

The rule that sentence is breaking is that there is more than one pronoun
in a sentence where it has the sense of "to be". (The rule is implicit, and
maybe someone could say there isn't such a rule, but doing so would require
an explanation of why the phrase "If the subject is a noun" is necessary if
its purpose isn't to rule out a pronoun in the subject slot.)

Aside: It also says "third-person pronoun", so that rules out things like
{HoD jIH wo'rIv'e'} "I, Worf, am the captain." (That might be a sentence
which is accepted but not grammatical.)

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