[tlhIngan Hol] law' puS with the -taHvIS and type-9 clauses preceding each element

Will Martin willmartin2 at mac.com
Thu Feb 11 14:17:24 PST 2021

I guess I don’t get how you claim that your phrasing of “the fire is at its hottest” is more accurately what I’m saying than what I’m actually saying.

Why not suggests that the other example means “You are at your most wonderful,”?

Why not rephrase everything that anyone says who disagrees with you?

I’m saying, “The fire is hottest,” and you don’t get to say that I’m saying, “The fire is at its hottest,” and convincingly pretend that that’s an error on my part for having said something I didn’t say.

charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan

rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.

> On Feb 11, 2021, at 5:04 PM, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Feb 2021 at 19:49, Will Martin <willmartin2 at mac.com <mailto:willmartin2 at mac.com>> wrote:
> I completely disagree about the scope of {latlh qabDaq} in the sentence {latlh qabDaq qul tuj law’ Hoch tuj puS.}
> Look at the superlative part of this sentence. What does it mean? It means, “The fire is hottest.” This is similar to the superlative in {SoH Dun law’ Hoch Dun puS}. “You are the most wonderful.”
> I think you have been misled by the English translation. In English, "the fire is hottest" can have one of two meanings: (1) "the fire is hottest among other things" and (2) "the fire is at its hottest (e.g., than at any time or place)". According to the description of the superlative in TKD, at least, it seems that {qul tuj law' Hoch tuj puS} can only have the first meaning and not the second. 
> <A Q {law'} B Q {puS}... says "A's Q is many, B's Q is few" or "A has more Q than B" or "A is Q-er than B"... To express the superlative, that something is the most or greatest of all, the noun {Hoch} is used in the B position>
> The example, {la' jaq law' Hoch jaq puS} "The commander is boldest of all", means that "The commander is more bold than anyone else" and not "The commander is at his boldest". What you claim about the meaning of {qul tuj law' Hoch tuj puS} is *dis*similar to the superlative in {SoH Dun law' Hoch Dun puS} "You are the most wonderful", "You are more wonderful than anyone else". If it *were* similar, it would mean "the fire is more hot than anything else" (as I believe), and not "the fire is (at) its hottest" (as you seem to think). 
> If you look at all the other canon instance where a comparison is made with {Hoch} in the B position, they are comparing A to everything else (of its class), i.e. A is Q-est among other things, and not claiming that A is at its most Q:
> DujvamDaq tlhIngan nuH tu'lu'bogh pov law' Hoch pov puS.
> jonlu'meH wo'maj pop tIn law' Hoch tIn puS.
> noH ghoblu'DI' yay quv law' Hoch quv puS.
> SoH rallaw' law' Hoch rallaw' puS.
> tlhIngan qorDu' pong potlh law' Hoch potlh puS.
> tlhIngan wo' yuQmey chovlu'chugh Qo'noS potlh law' Hoch potlh puS.
> It's certainly possible that the "A Q {law'} {Hoch} Q {puS}" *can* mean "A is at its Q-est" (in addition to "A is Q-est than anything else"), but that's not supported by any evidence that I know of. It's also possible that Dr. Okrand, in looking to translate "the fire is (at) its hottest", forgot (or deliberately ignored or is implicitly extending) the explanation of the construction given in TKD. But going strictly by what's known, {qul tuj law' Hoch tuj puS} does not mean what you think it means.
> Where is the fire hottest? It’s hottest on someone else’s face.
> We aren’t saying “[The fire at someone else’s face] is hottest.” We are saying “[The fire is hottest] at someone else’s face.”
> We aren’t talking about a bunch of different fires, and the hottest one is at someone else’s face. We are talking about ONE fire, and the place where it is hottest is at someone else’s face.
> In {DujvamDaq... nuH... pov law' Hoch pov puS}, it's not talking about one (set of) weapon(s), and the place where it is best is on this ship. It's talking about this ship's weapons, which is the best (i.e., better compared to any weapon on another Klingon ship). 
> Now, it's possible that {DujvamDaq nuH pov law' Hoch pov puS} could, in some context, be talking about one weapon, and the place where it is best is on this ship. It's also possible that {qIbDaq SuvwI''e' SoH Dun law' Hoch Dun puS} could, in some context, mean that the place where you are the most wonderful warrior is in this galaxy (i.e., you wouldn't be as wonderful a warrior in other galaxies as in this one). 
> Maybe the intended meaning of the sentence is to talk about "ONE fire, and the place where it is hottest is at someone else's face", but if that's what it means, then the "A Q {law'} Hoch Q {puS}" formula is doing something quite different than either how it's explained in TKD or in other canon sentences using this construction.
> -- 
> De'vID
> _______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> tlhIngan-Hol at lists.kli.org
> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.kli.org/pipermail/tlhingan-hol-kli.org/attachments/20210211/2ddf435a/attachment-0004.htm>

More information about the tlhIngan-Hol mailing list