[tlhIngan Hol] ordinals and be-verbs

[De'vID]

On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 at 13:58, mayqel qunen'oS <mihkoun at gmail.com> wrote:

> I want to say "the brave first travelers of space".
>
> logh ve'wI'pu' wa'DIch yoH
> logh ve'wI'pu' yoH wa'DIch
> yoHbogh logh ve'wI'pu' wa'DIch
>
> Which of the previous three options is/are the correct one/ones?
>
> According to tkd "Ordinal numbers follow the noun", however it's not
> clarified what we need to do, when we need to apply an ordinal to a noun
> with an adjective.
>

Even if there's an adjectival verb there, it's still following the noun,
isn't it? A strict reading of TKD says that a "verb expressing a state or
quality can be used immediately following a noun to modify that noun",
whereas ordinal numbers only "follow the noun" (with no "immediately"). So
a literal reading would suggest it would have to be {logh ve'wI'pu' yoH
wa'DIch}, with the verb immediately following, followed by the ordinal
number.

However, TKD often uses "noun" to mean "noun phrase". I think the order
depends on the meaning that you want. Consider:

{nentay cha'DIch potlh} "important second rite of ascension"
{nentay potlh cha'DIch} "second important rite of ascension"

In the first sentence, we're talking about someone's Second Rite of
Ascension, which is important. They have two Rites of Ascension, and the
second one is stated to be important. (It's left unspecified whether the
first one was important or not.)

In the second sentence, we're talking about the second time the Rite of
Ascension was important. The person we're talking about has two Rites of
Ascension, and both are important, and we're talking about the second one.
(Or they have ten Rites of Ascension, of which two are important, and we're
talking about the second important one.)

But that's just my opinion. But in any case, I think you can safely say
{logh ve'wI'pu' yoH wa'DIch}. It's unlikely to be misinterpreted (unless
context changes the meaning, like "the first *brave* travelers of space,
unlike those cowardly ones who went before...").

-- 
De'vID
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