[tlhIngan Hol] Beginner questions - SAO, SAS and pronouns
sustel at trimboli.name
Mon Sep 28 06:13:46 PDT 2020
On 9/28/2020 6:44 AM, Luis Chaparro Caballero wrote:
> 1. I have always thought that SAOs work as a
> "two-sentence-construction" (TKD 6.2.5). But then, is there any
> difference between these two sentences? Does the punctuation make a
> difference in Klingon?
> paq Daje'pu' 'e' vISov.
> paq Daje'pu'. 'e' vISov.
/The Klingon Dictionary/ and subsequent sources do not specify any kind
of punctuation requirements. They're entirely discretionary. These two
sentences are effectively identical.
> 2. In this list I've also seen that when we use a period it's possible
> not to use "'e'":
> paq Daje'pu'. vISov.
> Without "'e'" it's actually ambiguous: "vISov" can refer to "paq" or
> to the whole sentence.
Ehhhh.... Technically, this may true, but it would be as awkward to say
this as it is in English to say /You bought the book, I know it. /While
*'e'* is indeed a pronoun, I think it's taking the "may drop a pronoun"
rule a little too far. Its presence is essential.
> So we can make it clear if we use pronouns, right?:
> paq Daje'pu'. 'oH vISov. (I know the book).
> paq Daje'pu'. 'e' vISov. (I know that you have bought the book).
I would probably assume that the *'oH* does refer to the book, as you
> Pronouns help us to make it clear. But what if the sentence is not
> ambiguous? What would be the difference between the
> following three possibilities?
> bIlaDtaH 'e' vISov.
> bIlaDtaH. 'e' vISov.
> bIlaDtaH. vISov.
No difference between the first two because punctuation is not a "rule"
in Klingon. The third is awkward as I explained above.
> In TKD 5.1 we can read pronouns can be used for emphasis or added
> clarity. Maybe the difference between the last two sentences is only
> that "'e' vISov" is emphatic ("I know THAT")?
No, explicitly using *'e'* is standard; it doesn't add any kind of
emphasis or clarity. This is a good reason to think it can't be dropped
like other pronouns.
> Anyway: What is the difference between using a pronoun for emphasis
> and using the topic marker "-'e'"?
When you explicitly use a pronoun, you're making it clear that that's
the pronoun you have in mind, or you're speaking extra-clearly to make
sure you've been heard. If I say *HoD Duj vIlegh*/I see the captain's
ship/ and then follow it up with *vIghov,* am I saying I recognize the
captain or the ship? I can clarify by explicitly using a pronoun: *ghaH
vIghov*/I recognize him/her/ or *'oH vIghov*/I recognize it./
When you use *-'e',* you're giving the noun grammatical focus: you're
giving it an exclusive status. This noun, and no other, is the one I'm
talking about. *HoD'e' vIghom*/I meet the CAPTAIN (not someone else)./
Note that this is different than when you use *-'e'* as a topic marker
in pronoun-as-to-be sentences. *nuch ghaH Sogh'e'*/The lieutenant is a
coward./ When used here, the meaning of *-'e'* isn't exclusivity, it's
topic: /As for the lieutenant, he is a coward./ The topic of the
sentence is the lieutenant, and what do we want to say about the
lieutenant? He or she is a coward.
> 3. And what if the first sentence is intended to be the subject of the
> second one?
> paq Daje'pu'. QaQ.
I would assume that the elided subject of *QaQ* is *paq.* You cannot
have a sentence act as subject. This pair of sentences cannot mean /Your
buying the book was good./
Another reason to think that you can't elide *'e'* as object.
> 4. And if a sentece is not ambiguous, and my assumption that pronouns
> can be used for emphasis is right, how can we get the meaning "THAT is
> good" (emphasis) if we have no pronoun that refers to a sentence and
> can be used as subject?:
> bIlaDtaH. QaQ.
> So maybe we need a noun with "-'e'"?:
> bIlaDtaH. QaQ ngoDvam'e'.
You're on the right track. I'd probably use *wanI'* for this: *bIlaDtaH.
QaQ wanI'vam'e'.*/You are reading. THAT (and not something else) is
good./ But these are definitely two separate sentences in Klingon.
> 5. Anyway, is this possibility right?:
> QaQ. paq Daje'pu'. (That's good. You have bought the book).
Not correct, for the reasons above.
You don't want *QaQ* here, you want the exclamation *maj.*
*maj! paq Daje'pu'.*/Good! You have bought the book./
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