[tlhIngan Hol] placement of {je} relative to the {rIntaH}

Will Martin willmartin2 at mac.com
Mon Jan 27 13:01:50 PST 2020


Thank you for your calm and diplomatic explanation of dynamics I’ve only partially become aware of. It’s nice to have a mutually respectful exchange.

I’m not sure I’d agree on the concept of technology for learning a language that makes interpersonal communication less necessary a sign of a “growing” language community, though substitute “evolving” and we’re in total agreement. I’m sure you are accurate in your assessment. It would be interesting to know how many people are now in the community and how that number has expanded or contracted. Of course such a number would have to be vague as are the porous boundaries between those who know the language vs. those who know about it, as a continuum, not a distinctly bounded difference. Most people I talk to about it these days don’t know what a Klingon is, and barely know what Star Trek is, though they frequently confuse it with Star Wars.

It would be interesting to see how proportions have shifted between the early three primary categories of Klingon speakers: Trekkers, linguists, and computer nerds, and what new categories may exist that have grown since we came to recognize those three primary groups.

I also wonder if the use of the language has shifted; how much Klingon literature has developed, whether it is used as a spoken language among many individuals, and how large any group of speakers has grown to be in any single physical location, and where such locations might be. Do we still have speakers on all continents? What is the average number of languages that a Klingon speaker speaks? How many have used it for less than a year? More than a decade? How many have TKDs old enough to prove they didn’t use acid-free paper? Is there an E-book version? Has KCD been distributed through iTunes or Audio Books? Are there any efforts to Archive resources originally distributed on obsolete media or using obsolete file types?

And what about yoDtargh? I miss him. Very talented fourth Beginners’ Grammarian, who took over the role when I left it and showed up for one qep’a’, and then disappeared. Somewhere out there, there’s a guy that good at the language who hasn’t participated in decades...

Or what about ‘arHa, according to the Klingon Wiki, “currently serving” as Beginners’ Grammarian?

How many others went to the trouble to learn the language and then wandered away, distracted by other missions in life? Where are they now, and what is the difference between them and those still here?

In other words, fictional world aside, what is the 20th-21st century Earth culture of people who speak this language?

Likely, someone is writing their doctoral thesis on the topic, updating earlier versions by earlier authors...

charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan

rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.




> On Jan 27, 2020, at 2:26 PM, jevreh at qeylis.net wrote:
> 
> charghwI’
> 
> As core resources become more standardised and accessible (see the rise of Duolingo and Memrise, as well as the many excellent video resources provided by members such as our Klingon Teacher from Germany), the core constructs become more internalised and less discussion is needed since there is more structural/static help available for them.
> 
> Thus, people ask fewer questions about “normal” things. Thus people get the fringes faster. Thus people ask questions about the fringes sooner and more readily.
> 
> I’ll also add that in the discussion of the fringes and the edge cases I see many things that expand my understanding of the core syntax and give me more ideas about how to express more shades of meaning.
> 
> I think it’s a natural consequence of better structural systems for learning the language at lower levels — a sign of a growing community.
> 
> This kind of evolution happens in technical and academic disciplines all the time.
> 
> —jevreH
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jan 27, 2020, at 14:04, Will Martin <willmartin2 at mac.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> This wasn’t passive-aggressive. A little sarcastic in parts, yes, but not passive aggressive. I spoke a sincere opinion that the discussions seem overly focused on exploring the outer fringes of syntax with very little interest in stretching ones ability to express a wide scope of meaning or a specific shade of meaning using the language. I’m sure there are at least ten posts about word order while using unusual syntax for every one post about how to express a given meaning in the language.
>> 
>> I didn’t think that my post deserved a response, though I felt sure that it would get one, as you have proven, since censorship is so important to you. You clearly want an extraordinary degree of control over who speaks and what they say. So long as it fits your narrow interest, it’s fine, but stray, and receive admonition.
>> 
>> We can’t have a wider scope of topics. You won’t allow it, which, while on the topic, is fairly obnoxious and abusive.
>> 
>> I am honestly impressed — no sarcasm or meanness intended here — at how good you have gotten with the syntax, and with your well-selected examples from canon. This group really is better off for the resources you offer it. I mean that. Please put aside your probable dark feelings about me to accept that honest compliment.
>> 
>> This positive resource comes with a cost, apparently, which is the mechanisms you use to thwart anyone straying from discussions you don’t like or wish to control more rigidly without competition.
>> 
>> charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan
>> 
>> rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 27, 2020, at 12:15 PM, SuStel <sustel at trimboli.name <mailto:sustel at trimboli.name>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 1/27/2020 12:02 PM, Will Martin wrote:
>>>> I always am amused by how often the dominant discussions here don’t give a fig about expressing meaning well. It’s always about the minutia of syntax. Make sure you encode things accurately. Forget about actual translation. That’s obviously unimportant here. Just make sure that a computer program that generates Klingon text would spew only valid grammatical constructions.
>>>> 
>>>> All head. No heart.
>>>> 
>>>> That also explains the passionate refusal to mention cultural considerations, since that falls outside the context of modern software.
>>> What an obnoxious, passive-aggressive response this is.
>>> 
>>> mayqel's translation had EXACTLY the same ambiguities as the original. There was ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with it. His only question was whether the je or the rIntaH comes first. You not only ignored that question but began to pontificate on how he didn't provide you enough context to disambiguate a sentence that was SUPPOSED to be ambiguous. Then you accuse me of having no heart because I'm trying to stop you from dragging us away from his question.
>>> 
>>> You want to talk about ambiguities in Klingon or English? Do it in your own thread about your own sentence.
>>> 
>>> > I’m sure I’ll be insulted and abused for saying this, just so nobody thinks I don’t forsee it happening.
>>> 
>>> That's because you're being an obnoxious and abusive troll, and you know it.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> SuStel
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