[tlhIngan Hol] 'op jajmey..

[SuStel]

On 2/18/2020 7:55 AM, mayqel qunen'oS wrote:
> SuStel:
>> It's also upon the person writing to take into account the sensibilities
>> and conventions of his or her audience.
> True, but since there are several thousand people learning klingon, I
> doubt anyone can speak in their name, as if he'd asked them all.

That's what conventions are for. They are guidelines agreed upon by 
general consensus as the best way of doing something. You aren't forced 
to follow conventions, but by definition they are what a majority of 
people will be expecting.


> SuStel:
>> You can come up with a writing
>> style that you think is wonderful, but if your audience doesn't agree
>> with you about that then you've failed as a writer.
> .. But I'm not a klingon writer, nor do I aspire to become one.

Yes you are. Every sentence you write makes you a writer. I don't mean 
"author of a published and printed work"; I just mean writer.


> Suppose okrand is asked, and replies by saying that klingon doesn't
> have an impersonal second person "you". (And I believe that probably
> this would be his answer..)

I don't think he would jump to this answer, since there is evidence of 
an impersonal you in his Klingon.


> And then someone triumphantly says: "see ? you can't use it".. maj..
>
> I wonder.. Why would the same person, who in that scenario would call
> me out not to use the impersonal second person "you", wouldn't object
> too to people saying things like:
>
> {DaHjaj, vavnI'wI' yotlhDaq vIghro' vIleghpu'} for "today, at my
> grandfather's field I saw a cat".
>
> Okrand never said that {vIghro'} means "terran cat". People use it
> though, and noone says to the person using it: "I can't understand
> what you're saying; is your grandfather a klingon on kronos ? Because
> only there one could actually see a vIghro'.."
>
> Rules are rules,

No. When it comes to languages, rules are not rules. Rules are descriptions.

If Okrand were to say "Klingon does not permit an impersonal you," then 
we could point out someone trying to use an impersonal you and tell them 
they're wrong. But what that means is that person's use of Klingon 
contradicts the description of Klingon we've been given.

When someone uses *vIghro'* to refer to a Terran cat, they're doing two 
things. First, they're following the longstanding Star Trek convention 
of using a word for one type of animal to describe a similar-looking 
alien animal. A bat is an Earth order. Bajoran bats are mentioned in 
Star Trek, but they're not related to bats. Eels are an Earth order, but 
the Ceti eel is not related to eels. Cardassian voles are not voles. 
Rigellian oxen are not oxen. Alvanian cave sloths are not sloths. 
Likewise, *tera' vIghro'* are not *vIghro'.* It's the same Star Trek game.

Second, they're not contradicting the description of the *vIghro'* as a 
cat-like creature; they're adopting the word as a close substitute for a 
native Terran word. No one is suggesting that the *vIghro'* is found on 
Earth. If you want to be the guy who says "Well, technically, the 
*vIghro'* is found on Kronos, not Earth," people are just going to roll 
their eyes around you. Yes, everyone knows that. A Klingon looking at a 
cat might think it looks like a *vIghro',* so I'll just call it a 
*vIghro'* whether that's technically correct or not. A more precise 
Klingon might look at a cat and insist on using the Federation Standard 
word /cat./


> As I wrote earlier, the reader needs to possess some basic discernment
> skills. If he lacks them, then I'd ask him whenever he sees a klingon
> post from me, to just press "delete" and save me the drama of having
> to explain the obvious.
>
> Because one can't say that he misunderstands the impersonal second
> person "you" as being personal, while at the same time he doesn't
> misunderstand a {vIghro'} used on its own.

No one is saying they don't understand you. We're saying that you may 
not be using the best tools to express yourself.

-- 
SuStel
http://trimboli.name

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