[tlhIngan Hol] thoughts on Qeq face (orient towards)

[Will Martin]

Thanks for the clarification. The original post in this thread did not provide sufficient context to know that the agent/subject directs the object to face the location of another noun, such that a steersman faces/orients a ship to the location of a person/place/thing.

In that case, if the agent is both the one doing the steering and the thing being steered, the reflexive {-‘egh} would be quite naturally appropriate. {-chuq} would, indeed, be… special.

Two different agents would be directing one entity to face the location of the other of two agents…?

Two different agents would cause each other to direct one entity to face the location of a person/place/thing? Like all those noir films with two people fighting over a pistol until someone gets shot, or two people fighting over a steering wheel until the car crashes?

Two different agents cause two different objects to orient themselves to the location of the other agent or the other object?

jIwuQchoH…

This, of course, makes the mirror and time travel examples more complicated, since there is no noun for “self”.

charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan

rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.

> On Aug 18, 2020, at 11:06 AM, SuStel <sustel at trimboli.name> wrote:
> 
> On 8/18/2020 10:19 AM, Will Martin wrote:
>> vIchup:
>> 
>> julDaq Qeq Duj.
>> 
>> The ship faces the Sun.
>> 
>> Qeqchuq Duj.
>> 
>> The ships face each other.
> No. Okrand was very specific. The object is the entity which is being oriented toward the locative. The subject causes this orientation.
> 
> The ship faces the sun.
> 
> If you just want to report the ship's orientation (e.g., the ship is currently facing the sun), then you either have to bring in a new subject, use a reflexive one, or use an indefinite one:
> 
> 
> julDaq Duj Qeqpu' DeghwI'
> The helmsman faced the ship toward the sun.
> 
> julDaq Qeqpu''egh Duj
> The ship faced itself toward the sun.
> 
> julDaq Duj Qeqlu'pu'
> The ship has been faced toward the sun.
> 
> I used perfective here because to describe the ship currently facing the sun, it's logical that the action that caused this orientation is finished.
> 
> The ships face each other.
> 
> This is non-trivial to translate into Klingon, since we don't have reflexive locatives.
> 
> tlhIngan DujDaq DIvI' Duj Qeqlu'pu' 'ej DIvI' DujDaq tlhIngan Duj Qeqlu'pu'
> The Klingon and Federation ships face each other.
> 
> Variations, etc.
> 
> You might get away with something like
> 
> DujmeyDaq Dujmey luQeqlu'pu'
> The ships face the ships.
> 
> 
> 
>> SIla’Daq Qeq’egh HoD.
>> 
>> The captain faced himself in the mirror. He didn’t merely face the mirror. He wasn’t standing off to the side, looking at someone else in the mirror. He faced himself in the mirror.
> This sentence means that the captain stood in such a position that he was oriented toward the mirror. Literally it means The captain aimed himself toward the mirror. Remember, Qeq meaning face is just a generalization of the idea of aiming. The syntax remains the same.
> 
> 
> 
>> We can’t get too hung up trying to make prepositions in English directly match a literal translation of Klingon. These glosses and verbal guidelines are primarily intended to explain how a word conveys meaning and works grammatically in Klingon.
> No indeed, but we do have to pay attention when Okrand explicitly tells us the grammar of a word, and he has done so here.
> 
> 
> 
>> If {Qeq} has what English would consider a direct object as in “The ship faces the Sun,” or a prepositional object “The ship orients itself toward the Sun”, that noun requires {-Daq} in Klingon.
> Don't try to turn this into a formula. It's bound to get messed up in the more complex grammar of English face. In English, the object of face can be both the target of orientation (I face the sun; I stand orientated toward the sun) and the entity that is oriented (I face the captain toward the sun; I turn the captain so that he is oriented toward the sun). Klingon Qeq corresponds to the latter, not the former.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> SuStel
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