[tlhIngan Hol] If only we could use twice to say..

Ed Bailey bellerophon.modeler at gmail.com
Wed Mar 20 19:31:16 PDT 2019

On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 7:02 PM De'vID <de.vid.jonpin at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 20 Mar 2019 at 18:04, Ed Bailey <bellerophon.modeler at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 4:55 AM De'vID <de.vid.jonpin at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 19 Mar 2019 at 21:07, Ed Bailey <bellerophon.modeler at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> No surprises on the use of* -logh* in MKE: It says *Duj ghajchugh
>>>> vay, cha'logh boq'egh qav'ap motlh; chen qav'ap le'. ghajwI'vaD qav'ap le'
>>>> yIDIl.* "If owned, pay owner twice the rental to which they are
>>>> otherwise entitled."
>>>> (But it is proof that actual numbers aren't required in arithmetic
>>>> expressions; as one might expect, it's possible to insert a word like
>>>> *qav'ap* that has some numeric value that may be unspecified.
>>>> Also, something I hadn't noticed before: evidently *DIl* can be used
>>>> to mean "pay (the amount paid)," and not just the gloss of "pay for,"
>>> How so? {qav'ap} "rent" is a thing that you pay for. You're paying for
>>> rent, not for the amount of the rent (though this happens to be how much
>>> you have to pay).
>> The translation on the card makes it clear the amount paid is the thing
>> that's being doubled. I have heard "rental" (but never "rent") used as a
>> noun to mean the thing paid for, i.e. the use of a property for a period of
>> time, but that's not what the Monopoly card means.
> The expression "pay the rental" is a common shorthand for "pay the rental
> fee". {qav'ap} is consistently translated as "rent" on the property cards.
> I think you're being misled by the translation, because the English word
> "pay" can mean both "pay for" and "pay out". The fact that the fee you have
> to pay *for* is doubled means that the amount you have to pay *out* is also
> doubled, but it does not mean that the same verb is necessarily used for
> both.
>> If it meant the thing you pay for is doubled, you'd get to stay an extra
>> turn, right?
> No, the rental fee being doubled just means you're paying twice as much as
> you normally would.
> This is what it says on the ship card:
> {qa'vap}: 25
> {2 Dujmey lughajlu'chugh}: 50
> rent: 25
> if two vessels are owned: 50
> There's no implication that the fee being doubled means anything other
> than that you pay double the amount for the same service.

This was my point. The thing being doubled, *qav'ap*, is the amount to be
paid, not the thing being paid for. Therefore, the object of *DIl* in
qav'ap le' yIDIl* is still the amount paid, not the thing being paid for.

>> The KLI New Words List gives the gloss as "rent, cost, price, value," all
>> words that indicate an amount of money to pay for a thing or that the
>> amount a thing is supposedly worth.
> AFAIK, those definitions were not provided in the game, but is someone's
> guess at what the word means. (That guess may well be right, but they go
> beyond what's actually necessary to explain the usage in the game.) The
> game itself is consistent in using "rent" for {qav'ap} and {nob} as the
> verb to pay out an amount: {qav'ap DIl}, but {vaghmaH QaS nob}. It *may* be
> that you could say {vaghmaH QaS DIl} to say "pay out 50 troops" (rather
> than "pay for 50 troops"), but that is not how it's used in the game. In
> the game, you {DIl} a {qav'ap} by {nob}ing some amount of {QaS}.

But here you make a good point that convinces me not to use *DIl* to mean
"pay (money)." Klingon apparently makes a distinction between price as a
specified amount, like *wa''uy' DarSeq*, and price as the idea of an amount
demanded, requested, offered, or agreed upon, called *qav'ap*. You can
equate the two by saying something like *wa''uy' DarSeq 'oH qav'ap'e'* "The
price is one million darseks" but, as you point out, you still *nob* the
specified amount when you *DIl* the price (as the idea of the amount agreed
upon) or when you *DIl* the thing you're buying. I expect *ghogh'ot* "bill"
is also something you *DIl*.

This distinction also appears in English, somewhat differently. With
"price" as its object, "give" can mean either "pay" or "propose," depending
on context and wording: "I gave him the price he asked." "If you want this
car, I'll give you a good price."

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