[tlhIngan Hol] If only we could use twice to say..

[De'vID]

On Thu, 21 Mar 2019 at 03:30, Ed Bailey <bellerophon.modeler at gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 7:02 PM De'vID <de.vid.jonpin at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> There's no implication that the fee being doubled means anything other
>> than that you pay double the amount for the same service.
>>
>
> This was my point. The thing being doubled, *qav'ap*, is the amount to be
> paid, not the thing being paid for. Therefore, the object of *DIl* in *ghajwI'vaD
> qav'ap le' yIDIl* is still the amount paid, not the thing being paid for.
>

The thing being doubled, {qav'ap} (the rent, or rental fee), is not what
one would normally think of as being "paid for" *in English*, because
English distinguishes between paying "for" some things versus paying (no
"for") other things (typically a debt, bill, or fee). Actually, English is
inconsistent because you *can* say "pay for" rent or a fee in some
contexts, such as "I'll pay [for] your rent", "I pay [for] my children's
phone bills", "I pay $500 [for] rent", but you normally say "I pay rent"
instead of "I pay for rent" (unless it's in a context like "I pay for rent
and you pay for utilities").

In Klingon, {DIl} appears to be the verb one uses for both paying for
something (to obtain it) and paying (for) a debt, bill, or fee. The object
of {DIl} is the *reason* you're paying. It's just that English adds the
preposition "for" in some cases but not others. What you pay out is then
the object of {nob}. In *Klingon*, one "pays for" ({DIl}) the rent, just as
one "pays for" food.

When Okrand wrote the English definition of {DIl}, he was being succinct in
defining it as "pay for". That just means that the subject is paying, and
the object is the reason for the payment. It doesn't mean that {DIl} is
used exactly in those situations in English where "for" is used with "pay"
and not otherwise, which English is somewhat inconsistent about.


>  AFAIK, those definitions were not provided in the game, but is someone's
>> guess at what the word means. (That guess may well be right, but they go
>> beyond what's actually necessary to explain the usage in the game.) The
>> game itself is consistent in using "rent" for {qav'ap} and {nob} as the
>> verb to pay out an amount: {qav'ap DIl}, but {vaghmaH QaS nob}. It *may* be
>> that you could say {vaghmaH QaS DIl} to say "pay out 50 troops" (rather
>> than "pay for 50 troops"), but that is not how it's used in the game. In
>> the game, you {DIl} a {qav'ap} by {nob}ing some amount of {QaS}.
>>
>
> But here you make a good point that convinces me not to use *DIl* to mean
> "pay (money)." Klingon apparently makes a distinction between price as a
> specified amount, like *wa''uy' DarSeq*, and price as the idea of an
> amount demanded, requested, offered, or agreed upon, called *qav'ap*.
>

I think you're making this more complicated than it has to be. The object
of {DIl} is the reason you're paying something (whether it's an amount or
not), and the object of {nob} is the thing you're giving out (whether it's
an amount or not). You *can* state an amount as the object of {DIl}, but it
would mean that you're "paying for" that amount (i.e., you're paying in
order to obtain that amount).

{vaghmaH QaS vIDIlmeH Duj vInob} "in order to pay for 50 troops, I give a
ship", "I pay a ship for 50 troops", seems to me to be a pretty clear
sentence with no confusion as to what I'm paying out and what reason I'm
paying (what I'm paying for),

{qav'ap vIDIlmeH wa' 'uy' DarSeq vInob} "I pay one million darseks for rent"

{wa' 'uy' DarSeq vIDIlmeH qav'ap vInob} "I pay the fee [cost, price, value,
or whatever {qav'ap} means] for one million darseks". That is, I'm
purchasing one million darseks, and I'm paying out an unspecified {qav'ap},
perhaps a billion Federation credits (or whatever the exchange rate is).

I don't think the distinction you're drawing between a fee in the abstract
and a specific amount is justified or necessitated by how {DIl} has been
used in canon.


> You can equate the two by saying something like *wa''uy' DarSeq 'oH
> qav'ap'e'* "The price is one million darseks" but, as you point out, you
> still *nob* the specified amount when you *DIl* the price (as the idea of
> the amount agreed upon) or when you *DIl* the thing you're buying. I
> expect *ghogh'ot* "bill" is also something you *DIl*.
>

{ghogh'ot}, {rup}, {qav'ap} and even {mab} would be things I expect are
typical objects of {DIl}. This is despite the fact that in English, you
typically say "pay a bill" or "pay a fine" (not "pay for a bill" or "pay
for a fine").


> This distinction also appears in English, somewhat differently. With
> "price" as its object, "give" can mean either "pay" or "propose," depending
> on context and wording: "I gave him the price he asked." "If you want this
> car, I'll give you a good price."
>

Right. In Klingon, this sense of "give" cannot be {nob} and would have to
be something like {chup}.

-- 
De'vID
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