[tlhIngan Hol] New Words and Grammar Points from qep'a' cha'maH javDIch

Daniel Dadap daniel at dadap.net
Mon Jul 22 08:56:05 PDT 2019


>> On Jul 22, 2019, at 09:49, SuStel <sustel at trimboli.name> wrote:
>> On 7/22/2019 10:19 AM, nIqolay Q wrote:
>>> On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 10:15 AM SuStel <sustel at trimboli.name> wrote:
>>>> On 7/22/2019 2:52 AM, qurgh lungqIj wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> This is a summery of all the new information we gained. Most of it is also included on the new words list, but I compiled it all together for ease of reference.
>>> Hoy is be refined, be fancy, be sophisticated [pertaining to culture]. Does that bracketed note apply only to the final synonym, sophisticated, or the whole definition?
>>> 
>>> That is, does Hoy mean be refined, fancy, not boorish or be refined in a cultural sense, fancy in a cultural sense, sophisticated in a cultural sense?
>>> 
>> I suspect the bracketed note applies to "sophisticated" to distinguish it from the sense of "advanced" (as in "This engineering is quite sophisticated").
>> 
>> The original request on the KLI page (which I understand MO was provided with) was "Having characteristics associated with the upper class, possibly due to being particularly elaborate or due to arbitrarily culturally valued attributes. 'We are dinner at a fancy restaurant two nights ago.' 'Only a sufficiently sophisticated individual will appreciate the performance.'"
> Your first paragraph is the argument in favor of be refined, fancy, not boorish, while your second paragraph is the argument in favor of restricting the verb entirely to a cultural sense.
> 
> For instance, could I say 'uSqan Hoy refined iron, or would that only refer to culturally fancy iron? Given the original request, I suspect not, but the written clarification on the new words page is poorly positioned.
> 

If the intent of the requester is worth something, the word as I was requesting it wouldn’t make sense for {'uSqan Hoy} unless perhaps you were referring to a finely crafted blade or piece of art made from iron.

I don’t see nIqolay’s observations as being contradictory: the first term, “refined” could still be restricted to a cultural sense (as the context of the other glosses might suggest) even if there’s no explicit note saying so. I just wanted to be clear that the word isn’t meant to refer to things like refined sugar, that an oil refinery isn’t a {HoymoHwI'}, that fancy ketchup isn’t {tomat naH vIychorgh Hoy}, that a “sophisticated” artificial intelligence isn’t necessarily going to be culturally sophisticated, etc. I couldn’t find an English word that captured the meaning I intended that didn’t also have another meaning that communicates a different idea.

FWIW, the original idea I was trying to communicate when I made the request was “elevated”, also in a cultural sense, which for obvious reasons I didn’t think could be communicated with {jenmoHlu'bogh}. I wanted to talk about a food trailer that describes its food as “elevated vegan cuisine” but couldn’t think of the right word. In the moment, I used {Soj le'qu'}, which is probably sufficient, and some time later I realized that {Soj qub} would probably have been even better, but I made the request anyway since I figured it could be useful to have a way to describe culturally refined/fancy/sophisticated things that aren’t food. And I think I like {Ha'DIbaH Hutlhchu'bogh Soj Hoy} better for this particular place anyway, since it’s not exactly {Soj qub}; the atmosphere is quite casual.

toH.

teqSaS (teHaS?) mon DaSuchchugh 'ej Ha'DIbaH Hutlhchu'bogh Soj Hoy DawaH DaneHchugh, vaj “bISro vonIS” yIghoS. 'ej pa' bISopchugh, HISovmoH, qamuv vIneHqu'mo'! https://www.bistrovonish.com/
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