[tlhIngan Hol] Multiple question words / markers in a sentence

Tue Feb 19 07:01:35 PST 2019

I don’t think your example represents indirect quotation.

I should clarify what I think is the difference between direct and indirect quotation. In English:

Direct quotation: Jack said, “You should not go in there.”

Indirect quotation: Jack said that I should not go in there.

In English, punctuation makes the difference obvious when written, but it’s also obvious when spoken because the person of the subject of the verb being quoted changes. Literally, Jack said the word “You”, but the person he’s talking about is “me”, so when I paraphrase him in an indirect quotation, I change the subject to “I”. 

Klingon doesn’t have punctuation, so if the person of the subject of the verb being quoted doesn’t change, there is no signal as to whether or not this is a direct quote (a.k.a. “reported speech”) or if it is an indirect quotation (paraphrased). The indirect quotation conveys the meaning of the quotation, but it doesn’t give you the exact wording.

In the case you point out, even though the object of {jatlh} is {net}, that doesn’t mean that the quotation isn’t an exact replica of what was said. There is no evidence that it is paraphrased.

Some here have objected to my use of “direct quotation” and “indirect quotation”, saying the Klingon does both, but it only uses “reported speech”. I think this is somewhat confused by Okrand’s accurate, but grammatically loose translations in English. He intentionally shifts grammatical form in many of his translations, both because they make better translations in terms of conveying the same meaning in the two different languages, but also, I think, to make the point that he is not replacing English words with Klingon words, and arranging them according to parallel grammar between the two languages. He is translating, which is a more complex process.

In any case, you can convey “reported speech” in Klingon with English translations that are either “direct quotations” or “indirect quotations” in English, but I honestly think that all “reported speech” is “direct quotation” because Klingon doesn’t paraphrase when it reports speech. It gives you, verbatim, the words you are reporting as coming out of the other person’s mouth. That’s a direct quote. It’s not an indirect quote.

Since we know that {jatlh} can take a direct object, and we know that “reported speech” is grammatically independent of the sentence reporting the speech (with {jatlh} or {ja’}), there is nothing in your example to suggest that this isn’t normal reported speech, except for the modern convention that {net} represents the previous sentence, grammatically linking the two sentences.

Likely, you are interpreting this as indirect quotation for two reasons:

1. In English, we use “that” in indirect quotations. “Jack said that I should not go in there.” The same word, “that”, is used to translate {net}, but the presence of the pronoun does not establish that it has the same grammatical function in Klingon that it has in English.

2. In English, if the subject of the quoted verb is third person, then there is no change in pronoun for the subject in either direct or indirect quotation. DQ: Jack said, “Fred (he) should not go in there.” IQ: Jack said that Fred (he) should not go in there.

Meanwhile, I don’t think the word “that” is what really distinguishes indirect from direct quotations in English. It’s that shift in person, establishing that the reported speech is paraphrased, and not an exact representation of the words uttered by the person being quoted. This is the English grammar that has no Klingon equivalent. Klingons never paraphrase reported speech. It’s one of those areas where Klingons may be inaccurate, but they are never approximate. They may misquote you, but they will never paraphrase you.

ASL has a similar method of handling quotations, and while I’m sure it’s not appropriate to drag ASL into every Klingon grammatical argument, I’m also sure that as a linguist whose day job was managing the captioning of live TV broadcasts, Okrand is probably quite familiar with ASL and its beautiful differences from most spoken languages. Likely, some of these differences are useful to someone seeking to make a language unlike most human spoken languages, just as Native American languages have served as models for the grammar for Klingon comparatives.

In ASL, quotation usually takes the form of role-playing where you sign to indicate a person and point to a place, then slide into that place and sign exactly what that person said. This is remarkably similar to the Klingon quotation grammar, where you say that a person is talking and then you say what they said (or you say what a person said, and then clarify that a specific other person is talking).

In ASL, the part about the person talking always comes first, consistent with the ASL tendency to state the “topic” first so that the context is set for the rest of the sentence. Instead of signing, “This afternoon, I go to the store,” most ASL speakers would sign “The STORE, this afternoon, I go,” emphasizing the topic with raised eyebrows and head tilted forward. With the store as the topic, the preposition becomes unnecessary, and it’s really less important. If you know that the context is the store, and I’m going, the emphasis is on my being at the store this afternoon, more than the direction I’m traveling while I’m going. It’s a different way of thinking. ASL doesn’t use prepositions very often as separate words, since so much of signing implies directionality.

So, a marker for topic, applied to a noun at the beginning of a sentence… Hmmm. Where else have I seen that?...

There are several possible explanations for your example's exception to the normal grammar of reported speech:

1. This is poetic writing. {tlhonmey} could be grammatically correct in this setting. We can’t get too attached to the way things are written in poetry.

2. This is ancient writing. It could be that the modern representation of reported speech had not been codified yet. This could be an example of an earlier form that fell out of common use.

3. Again, as ancient writing, it could be that the “indefinite subject” function of {net} preceded the “SAO” function of {net}. Does this canon work include much use of {-lu’}? It’s possible that {net} was used in lieu of {-lu’}, and that a modern version of this line would be {nuv ‘umHa’ leghchugh veqlargh. jatlhlu’.}

4. {net jatlh} looks a lot like {net Sov}. This could be a fossilized form that, like {tu'lu’} is kept whole and unmodified even when it violates normal grammar. We often see {tu’lu’} where {lutu’lu’} is grammatically appropriate.

Yes, I am stretching the point.

The primary point here is that since the reported speech is not likely paraphrased, this is not a canon example of indirect quotation.

charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan

rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.

> On Feb 19, 2019, at 8:01 AM, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm at kth.se> wrote:
> 
> > We know perfectly well how "direct quotations" and "indirect quotations" work in Klingon: 
> > everything is a report of the actual speech, or else doesn't use a verb of speech.
> >
> > qaja'pu' HIqaghQo' I told you not to interrupt me. (TKD)
> Not contradicting this, but it's worth noting that there is at least one canonical instance where jatlh has been used to express an indirect quotation:
> 
> Those unfit disintegrate
> At the glance of Fek’lhr,
> So it is said
> 
> nuv ‘umHa’ leghchugh veqlargh
> ngoS nuv ‘umHa’
> net jatlh
> 
> (paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 1, Stanza 2)
> 
> It's from paq'batlh, which we know contains some dubious grammar, but it does seem a rather natural (and useful) expansion of the types of object that jatlh can take; we've long known that jatlh can take a SoQ (http://klingonska.org/canon/1997-06-29b-news.txt <http://klingonska.org/canon/1997-06-29b-news.txt>) as an object, and paq'batlh uses mu' and lut as the objects of jatlh several times. As such, it doesn't seem like a huge leap that you could also let a statement (marked by 'e' or net) be the object of jatlh.
> 
> That being said, the vast majority of quotations we have are direct, which does suggest that those may be the most natural-sounding. This may be another aspect of the "Klingons are often inaccurate, but they are never[ish] approximate." guideline that caused quite a bit of debate recently; quotes are commonly given as though they are being given verbatim, but whether or not they actually are is another matter.
> 
> //loghaD
> 
> From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces at lists.kli.org> on behalf of SuStel <sustel at trimboli.name>
> Sent: Monday, February 18, 2019 20:15
> To: tlhingan-hol at lists.kli.org
> Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Multiple question words / markers in a sentence
>  
> On 2/18/2019 12:27 PM, Will Martin wrote:
>> Before Okrand revealed the prefix trick to us, {‘etlhlIj HInob} would have, indeed, been ungrammatical Klingon, encoded English. It would have not made sense in the Klingon language. 
>> 
>> But Okrand DID reveal the prefix trick to us, and because of that {‘etlhlIj HInob} is perfectly grammatical in Klingon.
>> 
>> If he ever reveals to us how indirect quotation works in Klingon, the same will be true of your double-question, assuming that your version of how the grammar works matches whatever he comes up with. Before we knew how to use direct quotations, we had no grammar for it, and likely had we guessed, we would not have come up with what Okrand revealed to us, so earlier guesses would almost certainly be wrong. And yes, we spent years working with the language before we had any hint as to the grammar of how to make direct quotations.
> We know perfectly well how "direct quotations" and "indirect quotations" work in Klingon: everything is a report of the actual speech, or else doesn't use a verb of speech.
> qaja'pu' HIqaghQo' I told you not to interrupt me. (TKD)
> Literally it's I told you, "Don't interrupt me!" but it's also used in situations where in English one wouldn't quote someone else's exact words. If it's not a verb of speech, then it's something like this: qaqaghbe'pu' 'e' Datlhob You requested that I not interrupt you. Here, I'm not reporting your speech.
> "Direct quotations" are explained in TKD; we did not spend years before he had a hint of how to use them.
> -- 
> SuStel
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