[tlhIngan Hol] Multiple question words / markers in a sentence

Alan Anderson qunchuy at alcaco.net
Mon Feb 18 07:20:44 PST 2019


On Feb 18, 2019, at 1:56 AM, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> This is a double-question where the expected answer is still a question. That is, the *real* question word in {SaH'a' 'Iv} in context is {'Iv}. There's no confusion about whether you're supposed to answer a "yes/no" question, or a "who" question, because the context determines that the asker is trying to clarify to whom the first question was asked. The {-'a'} is actually expected to be part of the answer and so isn't really serving as a question word here.


On Feb 18, 2019, at 8:10 AM, Will Martin <willmartin2 at mac.com> wrote:
> 
> “It don’t make me no never mind.”
> 
> How many times has that been uttered? Everybody understands it. It does a perfect job of conveying meaning, but few would argue that it is grammatically correct. If I witnessed the conversation you describe, it wouldn’t make me no never mind. I wouldn’t correct anyone. That’s not the same thing as suggesting that it is grammatically correct.

I think your standard of “grammatically correct” is stricter than most. It is not good *formal* speech, and you won’t find it in something like the AP style guide, but it’s definitely following grammatical rules. (Although those rules might not be as universal as others — while it’s definitely a common phrase, I think it sounds a little off, with “It doesn’t make me any never mind” being what I have heard.)

> When someone made HoD Qanqor a little Jewish hat (I don’t know how to spell “yah-mi-ka”)

(It’s “yarmulke”, weirdly enough. Most who wear one would actually call it a “kippah”.)

> with a Klingon emblem on it, he laughed and put it on and yelled, {jIyID! jIyID!} and even though that verb did not exist in the vocabulary, everybody in the room knew exactly what he was saying. But he didn’t subsequently come to this list and insist to everybody that this was proper Klingon speech, which is kind of what you are doing.

I wouldn’t equate “inventing” a verb as a joke with the kind of meta-question Daniel is talking about.

> Add that the whole reason this sentence you suggest makes sense to you is that you speak a language that has a grammatical structure for indirect quotations. So far as we know, Klingon doesn’t. Klingon has direct quotation, with the grammar laid out for us, and even though Okrand has been asked about indirect quotation, back in the day, he consistently demurred. Perhaps he has addressed this topic in my absence?

How does your “indirect quotation”reference apply to the {bISaH'a'/SaH'a' 'Iv} exchange?

> 
> You have encoded an indirect quote from English into a Klingon sentence. It’s not a translation. It’s encoding. Any English speaker might be able to figure out what you are saying, but would a Klingon understand it? I doubt it.

The way I see it, it’s not even a translation. It’s a natural utterance, asking for clarification about a vaguely-addressed question, with the entire short exchange taking place entirely in Klingon and with no other language involved.

> {nuq legh ‘Iv} makes more sense. You are asking for two different bits of information in one sentence. Two question words would be replaced by the answer words. But when you combine the yes/no question with the question word question, you are just being grammatically weird and coming up with a story to explain it, apparently expecting the rest of us to approve of this and pretend that it’s a useful grammatical thing to know for the future as we make up future sentences.

The “story” is something that actually happened, and provides context with which to understand *why* the apparent double question came to be said. The subsequent explanations and analyses seem appropriate to me: In the context where this {SaH'a' 'Iv} appeared, only the {'Iv} is expected to be answered, while the {-'a'} “question” will remain in the answer.

> 
> I think you have gone a bridge too far on this one.
> 
> charghwI’ vaghnerya’ngan
> 
> rInpa’ bomnIS be’’a’ pI’.
> 

— ghunchu’wI'
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